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ARC TBC 5 illegitimate children

PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:29 am
by Tempest
As just mentioned in my intro, I have quite a brick wall in my ancestry which I can’t see a way around and will have to live with her decision.

My ancestor Ann ELLIOTT was born in Sowe (Walsgrave-on Sowe) in 1815 the daughter of Thomas ELLIOTT and Ann PERREY.

Ann had 5 children, sadly for me all illegitimate, I have no idea whether it was the same father for all 5 or 5 different!

But they are Mary b1833, Ann b1839, George b1843 (my line in the tree, he married and moved to Hucknall, Nottingham when the Coventry silk industry went into decline), Jane b1852 and Martha b1955

Ann ELLIOTT eventually married a Thomas WINDLEBORROW in 1872 aged 57, but again I have no idea whether he eventually did the right thing and was the father of all 5, from what I can find (not a lot) it was his 1st marriage too.

I rate myself just above a novice at this so don’t be afraid of insulting my intelligence with any thoughts.thanks for looking anyway.

Re: 5 illegitimate children

PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:41 am
by peterd
have you a DNA test done on ancestry does that not give a clue ?

Re: 5 illegitimate children

PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:26 pm
by Tempest
Hi Petard, to be honest never given it a thought didn’t realise it could resolve an issue like this? What can DNA give to sort this? If I get a DNA test done on me are you saying It can resolve the male line of my tree? That is impressive!

Re: 5 illegitimate children

PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:22 pm
by nugentsmith
Hello Tempest Your enquiry was intriguing as I have had similar problems, quite often in rural areas. The approaches I have used to get at least a working theory of the father have been:

* Parish records - in some cases a helpful vicar has put a note in the margin to provide the father's name.
* Marriage certificates for the children - I have had the father's name being provided in full; sometimes the father's correct Christian name is given, perhaps in conjunction with the mother's surname.
* Locating the children on Censuses - they might be living with a grandparent or an aunt or uncle, with the relationship provided.
* Locating the alleged father on later censuses, perhaps living with grandchildren.

I hope that you find these suggestions useful. Since the name was so unusual, I did a quick search in Warwickshire marriages and found one - good luck!!

Parish Church of Sowe alias Walsgrave
17 April 1876
Edwin Thomas PORTER full Bachelor Groom Walsgrave (Father John Porter, Miner)
Martha ELLIOTT full Spinster Weaver Walsgrave (Father Thomas Windleborough Labourer)
Edwin signed; Martha X. Wit: Isaac Liggins and Sarah Elizabeth Sedwell (?), bothX.

Re: 5 illegitimate children

PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:02 pm
by Tempest
Hello nugentsmith, thank you for taking the time to firstly look into my problem and for posting this, after so many viewings and no comments I was beginning to think I was all alone here.
Following your advice I have re-visited the 5 children of Ann, it remains frustrating because there are clues
MARY....on her baptism and marriage register, father is left blank or a line drawn through the entry.
ANN...Thomas Windleburrow is listed as the father on her birth certificate
GEORGE...just like Mary birth and marriage have a line drawn through father entry
JANE...similar line drawn through, but she is the informant when Thomas Windleburrow dies and is listed on it as daughter.
MARTHA....your info, thanks
On the 1861 census Thomas is living in the household, unmarried but under relationship is listed as father.

Do you think some Registrars refused to list him as father because they were unmarried.

I think I need to prepare (or accept) all my life has been false, I am not an ELLIOTT but in fact a WINDLEBURROW!!!!

Re: 5 illegitimate children

PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:51 pm
by nugentsmith
Hello Tempest
Good to see that you picked up my message, and pleased to be of assistance.
I did another search after I posted my reply on Friday, and found a marriage for Jane:
1874 Parish Church of Sowe alias Walsgrave No. 306 21 September 1874
Josiah WATTS full Bachelor Miner Walsgrave Father William Watts Miner
Jane ELLIOTT full Spinster Weaver Walsgrave Thomas Windleburrow Labourer
Josiah and Jane signed; Witnesses George Elliott signed, Martha Elliott X.

Of course, this is after Ann married Thomas, so perhaps it was correct to have Thomas as the father; same with Martha. This doesn't necessarily make Thomas the real father. However, Jane's description on Thomas's death certificate might be correct.
Further evidence is clearly Anne's birth certificate; is she the Anne who was registered as WINDLEBURROW - Births/1839/Q1/Foleshill Sowe/vol 16/page379 ? If so, Anne pretended that she was called Windleburrow and not married ....

You asked about the attitude of Registrars, but I have now knowledge of the procedures in the 1840s for "proving" who was who when a birth was registered. Depending on where the Registrar was located, perhaps a mother registering a birth could be brazen and give a father's name? For baptisms it must have been more difficult in a village such as Sowe. Also, it seems that the same vicar was in Sowe for some years and must have known the people in the parish.

So still lots of questions!!

Re: 5 illegitimate children

PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:15 pm
by Tempest
Hi nugentsmith
many thanks again
As you say "so many questions"
I'm interested that your Parish records are giving more detail than I've been using. I have used this online source http://www.hunimex.com/warwick/opc/opc.html#W something called Pink pages but it doesn't list father at a marriage record.The parish church in Walsgrave on Sowe is St. Marks.
I'd looked at these records for so long it had passed me by that Martha and Jane got married after their mother Anne!!
I have a copy of Annes birth certificate from that vol. her birth is indeed 4th Mar 1839, and Thomas Windleburrow is listed as Father, the informant is a Jane Elliott (Anne's aunt, Anne's (mother) sister) All the subsequent records of Anne, despite Windleburrow being given as father, census etc, list her as Anne Elliott.
Do you happen to know why some ages are given and some just recorded as "Full"......sorry another question?

Re: 5 illegitimate children

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:09 am
by nugentsmith
Good morning Tempest
I have a subscription to findmypast, and the collection of parish registers has improved in recent years. You refer to the parish of St Mark - presumably a typo as the church in Walsgrave seems to be St Mary the Virgin - see https://www.stmarys-walsgrave.org.uk/history/ There is an interesting list of vicars, which prompted my comment about the time that vicars served in parishes in those days.

You also asked about ages on marriage certificates. I had not considered the question before, so had a quick look through some of my original certificates - out of 20 or so, the earliest giving exact ages was 1853 but the latest giving "of full age" was 1863. Presumably the procedures were changed, but perhaps the message did not get through!

You may not be ELLIOTT but there seems to be a good chance that you are WINDLEBURROW. The population of Walsgrave during the 1850s seems to have been around 1500 people, so the identity of the father of Ann's children should have been well known. Have you found other Windleburrows on the Census records?

Good luck again!

Re: 5 illegitimate children

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:37 pm
by Tempest
Hi nugentsmith, of course its St Mary, I could claim typo but my incompetence is probably more accurate!! I took a look at the list of vicars and agree with you they would have known their congregation well in such a small village, interesting in its history the vicar applied to combine with Stoke because the attendance was so low. I noticed there is also a WoS historical society, but no link to it, may get in touch with the church to see if they can help.

As a precaution I have indeed researched the Windleburrow's!! In the mid 18th century John Windleburrow was a Yeoman (I believe that meant he owned his own farm?) in the ArchDeaconry of Buckinghamshire, born in 1740 he married Lydia Foster. They had 2 children, one being John who married Sarah Marshall in Stoney Stratford (slowly moving north) They at some point move again to Pottersbury and Yardley Gobion and have five children, 4 girls and one boy. The youngest girl dies at 3 months. John moves his family again up to Coventry and then Walsgrave on Sowe. The other 3, Elizabeth, Sarah and Alice all marry. Which leaves my elusive Thomas Windleburrow a farm labourer and sometimes coal miner (like most of the males in WoS who weren't Silk weaving) to wander in and out of the life of my ancestor Ann Elliott and like I said earlier age 60 marries her. They have 11 years of married life before she dies and he follows two of Anne's (and now thinking his) children up to the new coal fields of Hucknall, Nottingham.

thanking you again for your input here

Re: 5 illegitimate children

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:00 pm
by BC Wench
Is this still a Brickwall, or have you solved it?

Unless otherwise advised this will be moved to the Brickwalls Archived section
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