Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

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Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby Delapre-Ron » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:16 pm

Hi, I have been researching my family tree since about 2005. So far, I have run what I would consider a successful project tracing much of my paternal and some of my maternal ancestry. The problem I have battled with from the start is my maternal grandmother’s family. My mother passed away when I was very young, and we lost contact with her parents in the 1950’s. I have now got to the point where I feel that I require help to try to break down the brick wall that prevents me progressing. Any information on the birth/marriage of Joseph Thomas born 1850 and his wife Elizabeth (not Tinsley) born 1850, both recorded as born in Oldbury would be very welcome.
My grandmother was Mary Thomas born 6th March 1886 (from the 1939 register). The 1911 census does include Mary's mother Elizabeth Thomas living at 39 Orchard Street, Oldbury. Please note that this census also includes Mary’s sister Hannah Knight who was a witness at my grandparent's wedding, tying the records and families together. Also, interesting to note from this record is that another one of Elizabeth Thomas’s daughters - Elizabeth Cronshaw marries the person that completed the form following the death of her husband James Cronshaw in WW1 Flanders 1915. This census contains more clues, it states that Elizabeth Thomas had been married for 40 years, unfortunately I do not know if that was up until her husband’s death or to 1911. Joseph died on the 20 July 1909.
Another piece of information from this census is that it states there are 5 surviving children who were – Hannah Thomas b 1850, Elizabeth Thomas b 1882, John Thomas b 1886, Mary Thomas b 1886 and William Thomas b 1887. These 5 are stated to be from a total of 17 children that were born to Elizabeth and Joseph. The 1901 Census records Elizabeth and Joseph and lists both of them as born in Oldbury, they were living in the same house along with 3 of their children and one grandson (actually listed as son).
Ron
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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby grangers14 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:39 pm

Is this what you have?

1891. Canal Side, Bromford Lane, West Bromwich.
Joseph Thomas, head, 41, Brickworks labourer,
Elizabeth, wife, 41
John, son, 5, West Bromwich,
Hannah, daur, 15,
Lizzie, daur, 10,
Maria, daur, 3, West Bromwich,
All others born Oldbury

1901. 39, Orchard Street, Oldbury.
Joseph Thomas, head, 55, Labourer Brick yard,
Elizabeth, wife, 55,
Hannah, daur, 29,
William, son, 14,
Mary, daur, 13,
Thomas, son, 1, (should be grand son)
All born Oldbury

1911. 39, Orchard Street, Oldbury
Elizabeth Thomas, head, W, 62, married 40 years, 17 children, 5 living
Hannah Knight, daur, M, 35, married 7 years, 2 children both living, Confectioner Sugar boiler,
Thomas, grand son, 11,
Hannah Elizabeth, grand daur, 9,
Elizabeth Evanshaw, daur, M, 29, no children, Domestic servant
All born Oldbury

There is a big age gap with children in 1891. Could it be they were married before?
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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby Delapre-Ron » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:16 pm

Hi grangers14, thanks for your post, you are spot on with the list of information that I currently have. As far as I know (which obviously is not much) neither had been married before. If the 1911 census is to be taken as true, the 40 year marriage puts the marriage about 1871 when Elizabeth and Joseph would each have been about 21 years old. If Elizabeth did (I find it hard to believe) have 17 children this could account for large spaces in the ages of the surviving children.
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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby grangers14 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:21 am

It's hard to try and find matches in the GRO for maiden name, so many Thomas's!
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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby Delapre-Ron » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:09 am

I Agree with you on that. Many months ago I downloaded Thomas's and similar sounding variations into a spreadsheet for Wolverhampton, Walsall, West Bromwich, Oldbury, Stourbridge and Dudley and searched for multiple maiden names all to no avail. I have confirmed Hannah and Mary in the 1939 register which gives their dates of birth:
Hannah Thomas was recorded as born on 26 July 1873 (according to 1939 register) in Oldbury, however there were no Thomas’s registered as born in Oldbury during 3rd quarter of 1873.
Mary Thomas was recorded as born on 6 Mar 1886 (according to the 1939 register) in West Bromwich however there were no Thomas’s registered as born in West Bromwich during 2nd quarter of 1886.
So far this has not helped either. So as you see it's very strange - they obviously lived below the radar.
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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby grangers14 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:06 pm

I wonder looking outside the box might help, another area?
There was a birth recorded for a Mary, first quarter with mothers name Coltett, I presumed Collett but found no marriage :?
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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby rockyfowler » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:00 pm

Bit of background info may help others :wink:

1911
1911. 39, Orchard Street, Oldbury
Elizabeth Thomas, head, W, 62, married 40 years, 17 children, 5 living
Hannah Knight, daur, M, 35, married 7 years, 2 children both living, Confectioner Sugar boiler,
Thomas Knight, grand son, 11,
Hannah Elizabeth Knight, grand daur, 9,
Elizabeth Cronshaw, daur, M, 29, no children, Domestic servant
All born Oldbury


St Thomas Wavertree
11 Jun 1918
John Thomas WRIGHT 35 B Soldier 20 Chichester St Father Samuel Thomas Wright Butcher
Elizabeth CRONSHAW 36 W 20 Chichester St Father Joseph Thomas (Dec) Brick Burner
After Banns Both Signed
Wit; Henry William Taylor / Annie Jayne

You may need to send for a lot of birth certs to help sort them all out :cry:
Last edited by rockyfowler on Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby Northern Lass » Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:55 am

Hannah elizabeth knight West Bromwich 6b 874
Free bmd
Births June 1901
??

Gro
KNIGHT, HANNAH ELIZABETH THOMAS
GRO Reference: 1901 J Quarter in WEST BROMWICH Volume 06B Page 874
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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby gardener » Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:52 pm

grangers14 wrote:I wonder looking outside the box might help, another area?
There was a birth recorded for a Mary, first quarter with mothers name Coltett, I presumed Collett but found no marriage :?


Sorry, whose birth is this?
"The present is the key to the past" - Charles Lyell
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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby grangers14 » Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:09 pm

I think it was meant to be for Mary born 1866! I can't see that now! I should have pasted that find to correct myself! :?

There is this one?
THOMAS, MARY OGBURN
GRO Reference: 1886 M Quarter in WORCESTER Volume 06C Page 316

That seems to be an Eliza Jane Ogburn and John Thomas though.
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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby grangers14 » Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:20 pm

:? Was it this?

THOMAS, JOHN WILLIAM COLTETT
GRO Reference: 1885 J Quarter in WEST BROMWICH Volume 06B Page 846
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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby gardener » Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:41 pm

grangers14 wrote::? Was it this?

THOMAS, JOHN WILLIAM COLTETT
GRO Reference: 1885 J Quarter in WEST BROMWICH Volume 06B Page 846


I did wonder :-)

I was trying to work out if John and William were the same person - they never appear together and any loose kids in the census are impossible to tie in.

The whole thing is so frustrating! And I do wish that they had made the new birth index searchable for more than one sex and +/- two years. Who has time to do that!

Judging by his army record, William should have been born in September 1886, but who knows?

I think the birth dates given by Mary and Hannah in the 1939 register are rather suspect. If Mary was born 6 March 1886, then she would have been just 5 for the 1891 census, not 3.
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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby Delapre-Ron » Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:04 pm

grangers14 wrote:I wonder looking outside the box might help, another area?
There was a birth recorded for a Mary, first quarter with mothers name Coltett, I presumed Collett but found no marriage :?


Hello "grangers14" I am certainty up for looking outside the box as you suggest. Unfortunatly I can't see where your example fits in, or was that just what it was - an example?
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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby grangers14 » Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:13 pm

I think I must have got boggled eyed looking! :roll:
I was presuming that John and William were the same person as in John William who was in John in 1891 aged 5 and William in 1901 aged 14.
I just posted that GRO birth record...
THOMAS, JOHN WILLIAM COLTETT
GRO Reference: 1885 J Quarter in WEST BROMWICH Volume 06B Page 846
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Re: Brick-Wall hiding Thomas family in Oldbury

Postby Delapre-Ron » Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:20 pm

Northern Lass wrote:Hannah elizabeth knight West Bromwich 6b 874
Free bmd
Births June 1901
??

Gro
KNIGHT, HANNAH ELIZABETH THOMAS
GRO Reference: 1901 J Quarter in WEST BROMWICH Volume 06B Page 874


Hello “Norther Lass” thanks for your interest. I have managed to trace and document Hannah Elizabeth Knight from cradle to grave. I had a vague recollection of visiting an “Aunt Dolly” back in the 1950’s in Great Eccelston with my father. This turns out to be same person – Married Robert Benson 21 October 1925 in Bispham, Lancashire. The 1939 register has them living at Shepherds Farm, Elswick along with her mother. Hannah passed away with no issues 14 October 1987.
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