Confusing Catholic Baptism/Marriage Help!?

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Confusing Catholic Baptism/Marriage Help!?

Postby morrwilcox » Sat May 06, 2017 9:41 am

Could anyone see if they could find a marriage between Thomas Sheridan and Alice Jellyman?

Thomas is most likely Roman Catholic, and Alice is most likely Anglican/Church of England.
I don't have either of their baptisms (any help there would also be greatly appreciated!)

I believe that Thomas Sheridan is born around 1869, in Birmingham, to Thomas & Sarah Sheridan.
And that Alice Jellyman is born around 1856, in Penkridge, Staffordshire, to Charles & Sarah Jellyman.

I think that Thomas & Alice have at least two children, whose baptism (Roman Catholic) are as follows:

Thomae Sheridan
Born 1898
Bap. 1900
Father: Thomae Sheridan
Mother: Aliciae Sheridan (prev. Jellyman)

Lilia Sheridan
Born 1897
Bap. 1900
Father: Thomae Sheridan
Mother: Aliciae Sheridan (prev. Jellyman)

Thomas Sheridan later marries Priscilla Jellyman in 1900, in Stoke T. I believe that Alice and Priscilla are sisters.

In the 1911 census, Priscilla is widowed, living with who are said to be her 3 children: Alice, Lily and Thomas.
Any help with the baptism of Alice Sheridan, around 1893, would also be lovely!

Her birth cert says that:
She's born on the 18th August 1893, in Smallthorne.
Her father is given as Thomas Sheridan, a forge labourer, and her mother is said to be Priscilla Sheridan, formerly Gallimore.

The marriage between Thomas and Priscilla is why I've been trying to do some digging.
They marry in 1900, but all three of their supposed children are born before, in 1893, 1897, and 1898 respectively. So I did some looking around for baptisms, and came across the two for Thomas and Lily, mentioned in my original post, but with the mother's name as Alice.
I can't find any baptisms for Alice, Lily or Thomas with the mother's name down as Priscilla!

Any help unravelling this mystery would very much appreciated!
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Re: Confusing Catholic Baptism/Marriage Help!?

Postby Jimmy » Sat May 06, 2017 9:49 am

There is this one,

Marriages Mar 1900.
Jellemer Priscilla. Stoke T. 6b. 323.
Sheridan Thomas. Stoke T. 6b. 323.
Jimmy.

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I need all the preservatives I can get.
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Re: Confusing Catholic Baptism/Marriage Help!?

Postby Jimmy » Sat May 06, 2017 10:26 am

morrwilcox wrote:Thomae Sheridan
Born 1898
Bap. 1900
Father: Thomae Sheridan
Mother: Aliciae Sheridan (prev. Jellyman)

Lilia Sheridan
Born 1897
Bap. 1900
Father: Thomae Sheridan
Mother: Aliciae Sheridan (prev. Jellyman)


There dos'nt seem to be ant birth recods for the above children.
Last edited by Jimmy on Sat May 06, 2017 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jimmy.

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I need all the preservatives I can get.
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Re: Confusing Catholic Baptism/Marriage Help!?

Postby gardener » Sat May 06, 2017 10:36 am

SHERIDAN, LILY JERRYMAN
GRO Reference: 1897 J Quarter in STOKE UPON TRENT Volume 06B Page 226
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Re: Confusing Catholic Baptism/Marriage Help!?

Postby gardener » Sat May 06, 2017 6:45 pm

So (just to try and understand it)

1911
Pricilla Sheridan 49 wid Cannock
Alice Sheridan 17 Smallthorne
Lily Sheridan 14 Hartshill
Thomas Sheridan 12 Smallthorne

1901
Pricalla Sheridan 36 Cannock Chase
Alice Sheridan 8 Cannock Chase
Lily Sheridan 4 Smallthorne
Thomas Sheridan 2 Smallthorne

1881
Mary An Jelleyman 32 unm Cannock
Mary An Jelleyman 15 Hatherton
William Jelleyman 13 Cheslyn Hay
Frank Jelleyman 7 Cheslyn Hay
Alfred Jelleyman 5 Cheslyn Hay
Percilla Jelleyman 17 Hatherton (says dau and sister, but order indicates the latter)

1871
Penkridge Union Workhouse
Mary Ann Jellimore 23
Mary Ann Jellimore 3
William Jellimore 2

1871
Calf Heath, Hatherton
Charles Sillyman 52
Sarah Sillyman 44
Charles Sillyman 12
Cecie Sillyman 10
Precilla Sillyman 8 Calf Heath
Lachens Sillyman 4

1871
Fredrick Grepton 27
Harriet Grepton 24
Elizabeth Florance 4
Alice Jellyman 15 servant Calf Heath
James Mullagham 37


1861
Penkridge, Calf Heath
Charles Pelliman 42 Gloucs, Coley
Sarah Pelliman 35
Mary A Pelliman 14
Maria Pelliman 7
Alice Pelliman 5 Penkridge
Eliza Pelliman 3
Charles A G Pelliman 1


1851
Cannock
Charles Jelleman 32 Gloucs, Coaly
Sarah Jelleman 26
Mary Ann Jelleman 3
Emma Jelleman 1
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Re: Confusing Catholic Baptism/Marriage Help!?

Postby gardener » Sat May 06, 2017 8:33 pm

Is this Alice in 1881? But gone by 1891?

1881
Elijah Pountney 34
Alice Pountney 25 Cannock
Sarah Pountney 4
Thomas Pountney 2
William Pountney 2m

POULTNEY, SARAH JANE JELLEYMAN Order
GRO Reference: 1877 S Quarter in CANNOCK Volume 06B Page 505

POULTNEY, THOMAS HENRY JELLYMAN Order
GRO Reference: 1879 M Quarter in CANNOCK Volume 06B Page 526

POUTNEY, WILLIAM JELLIMORE Order
GRO Reference: 1881 M Quarter in CANNOCK Volume 06B Page 475

1891
Elizah Pountney 45
Eliza Pountney 40
Thomas Pountney 14
William Pountney 13
Eliza Pountney 10
Albert Pountney 5
Harriet Pountney 3
Mercy Pountney 9 Weeks
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Re: Confusing Catholic Baptism/Marriage Help!?

Postby morrwilcox » Sun May 07, 2017 3:22 pm

Yes, your second post has the orders of the censuses, and the families, all correct!

And I've never come across the 1881 census with Alice Pountney (nee Jellyman) before, so it could well be her! I'll definitely look into that!

Any luck finding a marriage between an Alice Jellyman and Elijah Pountney?
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Re: Confusing Catholic Baptism/Marriage Help!?

Postby gardener » Sun May 07, 2017 5:34 pm

Well, it is very poor spelling, but possible? If the T is a misread J?

Marriages Sep 1876
Poltney Elijah Wolverhampton 6b 720
Poole William Wolverhampton 6b 720
Tilleman Alice Wolverhampton 6b 720
Wright Mary Wolverhampton 6b 720
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Re: Confusing Catholic Baptism/Marriage Help!?

Postby gardener » Sun May 07, 2017 6:43 pm

And I noticed this yesterday... not sure if it fits or not.

Marriages Sep 1885
JELLIMAN Priscilla Nottingham 7b 452
STANLEY Louisa Nottingham 7b 452
TURNER William Clark Nottingham 7b 452 S
WINCHURCH James Nottingham 7b 452


WINCHURCH, CLARA JELLYMAN
GRO Reference: 1886 S Quarter in DERBY Volume 07B Page 541

WINCHURCH, SARAH ANN JELLYMAN
GRO Reference: 1890 J Quarter in CANNOCK Volume 06B Page 489


1891
Litchurch, Derbyshire
James Winchurch 34 lab iron works, Dudley
Priscilla Winchurch 28 Cannock
Clara Winchurch 4 Derby
Sarah A Winchurch 1 Dudley
William Winchurch 27 brother

1901
Leicester
James Winchurch m 39 crane driver Dudley
Elizabeth Towers m 30 housekeeper
Sarah A Winchurch 11 Cannock
Beatrice Winchurch 2 Leaicester
Florence Crouch 22 boarder
Emma Crouch 20 boarder
Lilly Page 19 boarder

Clara and Sarah Ann Winchurch seem to go to Canada 1910/11. I can't find Beatrice. Perhaps she was not a Winchurch?

But if this all fits together then:

1876 Alice Jellyman marries Elijah Poultney
1877-81 they have three children
1897 Thomas Sheridan and Alice have Lily? (bapt)
1898 Thomas Sheridan and Alice have Thomas? (bapt)

meanwhile
1885 Priscilla Jellyman marries James Winchurch
1886-1890 they have two children
1893 Priscilla and Thomas Sheridan have Alice (birth cert)
1900 Priscilla marries Thomas Sheridan (using her maiden name)

Is that even possible?
Last edited by gardener on Tue May 09, 2017 9:36 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Confusing Catholic Baptism/Marriage Help!?

Postby morrwilcox » Mon May 08, 2017 6:19 pm

Well done on finding that marriage between Alice Tilleman and Elijah Pountney. I've seem Jellyman misspelt several different ways so I reckon it's still a possibility.

I have come across Priscilla's link with James Winchurch. Haven't substantiated anything, but could be her.

I'm not even sure if the whole story is possible either! A real love triangle, or two love triangles, rather?
Gosh, this is very confusing, but thank you so much for your help! I'll update this thread if I find anything, and I look forward to any future updates!
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Re: Confusing Catholic Baptism/Marriage Help!?

Postby gardener » Mon May 08, 2017 9:38 pm

Still poking around :-) I asked for a couple of marriage lookups.

1881
Elijah Pountney 34
Alice Pountney 25 Cannock
Sarah Pountney 4
Thomas Pountney 2
William Pountney 2m

POULTNEY, SARAH JANE JELLEYMAN Order
GRO Reference: 1877 S Quarter in CANNOCK Volume 06B Page 505

POULTNEY, THOMAS HENRY JELLYMAN Order
GRO Reference: 1879 M Quarter in CANNOCK Volume 06B Page 526

POUTNEY, WILLIAM JELLIMORE Order
GRO Reference: 1881 M Quarter in CANNOCK Volume 06B Page 475

1891
Elizah Pountney 45
Eliza Pountney 40
Thomas Pountney 14
William Pountney 13
Eliza Pountney 10
Albert Pountney 5
Harriet Pountney 3
Mercy Pountney 9 Weeks


BARNETT, HARRIET -
GRO Reference: 1889 J Quarter in WEST BROMWICH Volume 06B Page 778

BARNETT, MERCY JOHNSON
GRO Reference: 1891 M Quarter in WOLVERHAMPTON Volume 06B Page 616
(not sure about those, but could right)

BARNETT, ELIZA JOHNSON Order
GRO Reference: 1880 S Quarter in CANNOCK Volume 06B Page 470

1901
Elijah Poultney 57 boatman barge
Eliza Poultney 47
Harriet Barnett 13
Mercy Barnett 10
Harry Poultney 3
Ellen Poultney 7/12

1911
Elijah Pountney 64
Eliza Pountney 62 (says married 21, 7 children, 4 alive) born Wordsley
Harry Pountney 13
Elizah Pountney 3
Mercia Pountney 20
Ellen Pountney 10

POUNTNEY, ELLEN BARNETT
GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in WOLVERHAMPTON Volume 06B Page 631

POUNTNEY, HENRY BARNETT Order
GRO Reference: 1898 J Quarter in WOLVERHAMPTON Volume 06B Page 614

POUNTNEY, JOSEPH BARNETT Order
GRO Reference: 1893 D Quarter in WOLVERHAMPTON Volume 06B Page 572

POUNTNEY, ELIJAH HENRY BARNETT Order
GRO Reference: 1892 D Quarter in WOLVERHAMPTON Volume 06B Page 588



So, judging by the 1901 census, Harriet and Mercy were not Elijah's children. And it seems possible that Eliza was married to a Barnett, but had the maiden name Johnson. So this might be her (given that Elijah was a boatman).

1881
Wolverhampton (on a boat)
George Barnett 27 boatman Stratford on Avon
Eliza Barnett 25 Dudley
Mary A. Barnett 2 Runcorn, Lancs
Eliza Barnett 6m Wolverhampton

Marriages Sep 1880
Barnett George Nantwich 8a 419
HOLLOWOOD Albert Nantwich 8a 419
Johnson Eliza Nantwich 8a 419
Moss Rose Kate Nantwich 8a 419
Round Walter John Nantwich 8a 419

(but obviously there are lots of possible pairings here, so it is just guesswork. I'll just submit it anyway, in case it comes in handy)
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Re: Confusing Catholic Baptism/Marriage Help!?

Postby Northern Lass » Tue May 09, 2017 7:36 am

Look ups done RF thanks RF :wink:
here
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=20870

Gardener if you could put completed on look ups SRD can archive

thanks :grin:
https://www.facebook.com/callthecleaners.uk/Cleaners Covering Wolverhampton and Wombourne
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Re: Confusing Catholic Baptism/Marriage Help!?

Postby gardener » Tue May 09, 2017 9:00 am

Northern Lass wrote:Look ups done RF thanks RF :wink:
here
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=20870

Gardener if you could put completed on look ups SRD can archive

thanks :grin:


It was my first action today :-)


So (thanks to RF) we now have



Re: Wolverhampton Marriage look up (St Mary/St James)

Postby rockyfowler » Tue May 09, 2017 6:29 am
St Mary Wolverhampton
1876
24 Jul
Elijah POLTNEY 29 B Boatman Top Lock Father Joseph Poltney Boatman
Alice TILLEMAN 20 S Top Lock Father Charles Tilleman Farm Labourer
After Banns The X Of Both
Wit; David Levi Goode / Elizabeth Tilleman X

St James Wolverhampton
1892
15 Dec
Elijah POUNTNEY 44 W Boatman 34 Old Mill St Father Joseph Pountney (Dec) Boatman
Eliza BARNETT 39 W 34 Old Mill St Father William Johnson (Dec) Boatman
After Banns The X Of Both
Wit; James Weaver / Susanna Stevens X


That all firms that up.
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Re: Confusing Catholic Baptism/Marriage Help!?

Postby gardener » Tue May 09, 2017 9:41 am

Where did you find these baptisms? And where did they take place?

Thomae Sheridan
Born 1898
Bap. 1900
Father: Thomae Sheridan
Mother: Aliciae Sheridan (prev. Jellyman)

Lilia Sheridan
Born 1897
Bap. 1900
Father: Thomae Sheridan
Mother: Aliciae Sheridan (prev. Jellyman)

Thomas Sheridan later marries Priscilla Jellyman in 1900, in Stoke T. I believe that Alice and Priscilla are sisters.


Do you have the 1900 marriage certificate? Could you post the details, if so?
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Re: Confusing Catholic Baptism/Marriage Help!?

Postby morrwilcox » Wed May 10, 2017 8:32 am

I don't have the 1900 marriage cert. unfortunately. Looking to order it soon.

I found the baptisms of Lily and Thomas Henry on FMP, 'England Roman Catholic Baptisms' record set specifically.
They both took place at St Joseph, Burslem. Deanery is North Staffordshire. Diocese is Birmingham.
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