Looking for help on this query--NL adding

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Re: Looking for help on this query--NL adding

Postby gardener » Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:58 pm

BC Wench wrote:Lily Rose, birth 11 Aug 1887 - Admitted 7 Jan 1895
St Thomas's Infants School, King Street, Dudley, Worcs
Parent: William - Residence: 27 Fountain Street - Last School: Knowle School - Date of Withdrawal: 28 June 1895

Rosannah Rose, Birth: Left (no date) - Admitted 11 Apr 1893
St Thomas's School, King Street, Dudley, Worcs
Parent: William - Residence: 13 Red Hill - Last School: Tetnall Street - Date of Withdrawal: 9 Oct 1893

Geo H Rose, Birth: 21 Aug 1883 - Admitted 30 Oct 1893
Hart's Hill School (Later Holly Hall CS School)
Parent: Wm - Residence: 26 Nine St., H.H. (Holly Hall?) - Last School: Rom. Cath. Bd.


Thanks a lot BC Wench :-)
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Re: Looking for help on this query

Postby gardener » Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:30 pm

Pushing my luck here...

could you also check:

Rosannah Rose, born 1885, record 1893 Netherton, Staffordshire

and

Rose Hannah Rose, born 1885, record 1894 Dudley, Staffordshire

It seems unlikely that George Henry is ours so it would be great to see where Rosehannah was in 1893 - if it is her, which it might not be. Bit tricky these school records
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Re: Looking for help on this query

Postby grangers14 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:44 pm

St Thomas's Girls' (Later Mixed Junior) Primary School
21 October 1885. Rose Hannah Rose, 17 Dec 1894, William, 26 Fountain Street, Last School, Springfield, Date left 22nd Feb 95

Northfield Road School (Girls')
11 Oct 1893. Rosannah Rose, 21 10 57. Mrs D 47 Gyles St Dudley.
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Re: Looking for help on this query

Postby gardener » Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:35 pm

Thanks grangers14

I've tried to sort this out in date order.

William is given as the father for all of them, except the Northfield Road entry where it seems to indicate Rosannah was living with a "Mrs D".

They seem to have moved between Dudley and Netherton, back and forth, changing schools.

I've always assumed that Jane Rose was alive in 1901 since the newspaper reports call Ellen Downs William's paramour, but that may be wrong. If William was providing a home for the girls between 1893 and 1895 then I think it is likely their mother was still around - I can't see that the household would have functioned without a "mother" to look after the small girls. I know that Jane's birth place is odd but the age is right.

1891 - 41 St. Giles St., Netherton, Dudley
William Rose Head 39 Chain Maker b. Staffs., Cradley Heath
Jane Rose Wife 33 b. Warwickshire, Soho
Arthur Rose 16 Chain Maker b. Staffs., Walsall
Ernest Rose 13 Chain Maker b. Staffs., Walsall
William Rose 11 b. Durham, Sunderland
Samuel Rose 9 b. Durham, Sunderland
George H Rose 7 b. Durham, Sunderland
Rosannah Rose 5 b. Staffs., Cradley
Lilly E Rose 2 b. Staffs., Cradley

I'm not sure about the George Henry school record - it isn't far away but seems odd.

1901 - 28 Birmingham St., Dudley
William Rose Head 49 Chain Maker b. Staffs., Cradley Heath
Ellen Rose Wife 26 b. Worcs., Netherton (This is Ellen DOWNES)
Lilly Rose Daur 13 b. Staffs., Cradley Heath
Frederick Rose Son 11m b. Worcs., Dudley

Was Lily there to take care of her baby half-brother?

If William was with Ellen by 1898, could Jane be in hospital or had she moved in with someone else and taken his name? I've tried searching but come up with nothing.

Thanks for the school records though. It is easy to forget that families moved around in between the census snapshots
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Re: Looking for help on this query

Postby Northern Lass » Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:43 am

This is great thanks so much for helping with this
will add to Bcc in notes

See I think she left him when she found out he had a child by another woman in was it 1898?

I can't think though where she would go?
did she remarry?
did she move away?

The only thing I can think of is to check...when open all the st thomas dudley burials from
1887 onwards (from when youngest child born lily?)

who is mrs D...is that ellen downes?
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Re: Looking for help on this query

Postby gardener » Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:28 am

Northern Lass wrote:This is great thanks so much for helping with this
will add to Bcc in notes

See I think she left him when she found out he had a child by another woman in was it 1898?
...
The only thing I can think of is to check...when open all the st thomas dudley burials from
1887 onwards (from when youngest child born lily?)

who is mrs D...is that ellen downes?


I don't think that is very likely.

The story from Grandpa was that Ellen was "stepping out" with Arthur, but when he went off to be a soldier William became "friendly" with her, but when she found it was a bigamous marriage she went home to her mum.

Obviously a mixture of truth and fiction there, but if you look at the time line it kind of works.

BCC: "Arthur Rose enlisted with the Militia: (Reg.No. 3345) 4th Battalion Worcestershire Regiment 16.4.1892. Posted to the King's Royal Rifle Corps 25.4.1894"

His sisters were at school, not sure about the younger boys. Then William becomes involved with Ellen, gets her pregnant in early 1898, he leaves or Jane leaves, and he moves in with Ellen.

I found George Henry as "Harry" in the 1901 census, so this is possibly him at school? Though it could be another. Won't help much anyway.

Harry Rose born 1884, record 1890 Dudley
.
I don't know who Mrs D was. I suppose it could be Ellen's mother though I don't see why it should be. A Dodson? Someone else who just boarded kids?
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Re: Looking for help on this query

Postby BC Wench » Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:34 pm

Thought I would just post this even though it doesn't look to be the George Henry you're looking for, but may connect to another Rose family that you have.

St Thomas's Infants School, King Street, Dudley
Laura Agnes Rose, Birth: 18 Sep 1882 - Admitted 3 Feb 1890
Harry Rose, Birth: 9 Aug 1884 - Admitted 3 Feb 1890
Charlie Rose, Birth: 30 Oct 1885 - Admitted 3 Feb 1890

No parents names - All living at 208 High Street - All left 28 Apr 1890
Researching: PARGETER, BELCHER, BRADLEY, DANDO, ROWLEY, ROWSELL
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Re: Looking for help on this query

Postby gardener » Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:50 pm

BC Wench wrote:Thought I would just post this even though it doesn't look to be the George Henry you're looking for, but may connect to another Rose family that you have.

St Thomas's Infants School, King Street, Dudley
Laura Agnes Rose, Birth: 18 Sep 1882 - Admitted 3 Feb 1890
Harry Rose, Birth: 9 Aug 1884 - Admitted 3 Feb 1890
Charlie Rose, Birth: 30 Oct 1885 - Admitted 3 Feb 1890

No parents names - All living at 208 High Street - All left 28 Apr 1890


Thanks a lot. No, that would seem to be a different family all together
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Re: Looking for help on this query

Postby Northern Lass » Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:28 am

So If Arthur was "stepping out" with Ellen
and then went to war in 1892
if she then became friendly with father William between 1892 and 1898
I think Jane left before the stepping out bit.....or died.

was there ever a marriage between Wm rose and Ellen?
did we ever look for one?

I remember my grandma dau of Arthur saying that her Grandad (Wm) was a horrible man.
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Re: Looking for help on this query

Postby gardener » Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:51 pm

No marriage, and as it says "paramour" they can't have been married. I think William probably took up with Ellen after 1894. The 1892 date is for the part time bit I think like the TA alongside work
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Re: Looking for help on this query--NL adding

Postby Northern Lass » Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:24 am

I think this Mrs D is important but can't work it out

Been looking at Rosehanas school info

1. April 1893-Oct 9th 1893
Rosannah Rose, Birth: Left (no date) - Admitted 11 Apr 1893
St Thomas's School, King Street, Dudley, Worcs
Parent: William - Residence: 13 Red Hill - Last School: Tetnall Street - Date of Withdrawal: 9 Oct 1893

2. 11 Oct 1893-?
Northfield Road School (Girls')
11 Oct 1893. Rosannah Rose, 21 10 57. Mrs D 47 Gyles St Dudley.
St Thomas's Girls' (Later Mixed Junior) Primary School

3. 17 Dec 1894-22 Feb 1895
(birth)21 October 1885.// Rose Hannah Rose, 17 Dec 1894, William, 26 Fountain Street, Last School, Springfield, Date left 22nd Feb 95

Between 9th or 11 Oct 1893 until 17 Dec 1894...she changes guardianship...or at least the contact changes for school.
Wm is up to Oct 9th 1893
Mrs D from 11 Oct 1893 - poss 17 Dec 1894.
Then back to Wm from 17 Dec 1894 -22 Feb 1895

I think it is important but don't know how..

Q does Jane marry is she mrs D...
Is there a way to find out on the census who is living at 47 Giles St Dudley in 1891 and 1901?
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Re: Looking for help on this query--NL adding

Postby gardener » Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:21 pm

1891
47 St Giles Street, Dudley
Piece: 2297
Folio: 112
Household Members:
Name Age
David Holte 39
Rachel Holte 34
Mary Holte 13
Thomas Holte 12
Sarah Holte 11
David Holte 9
Edward Holte 8
Harry Holte 6
Rosannah Holte 3
Rachel Holte 1

1901 has no house numbers but the Holt family is still next door to the Bennetts, so perhaps not moved
St Giles Street
Piece: 2747
Folio: 170
Page Number: 30
Household Schedule Number: 175
Household Members:
Name Age
David Holt 49
Rachael Holt 44
David Holt 19
Edward Holt 18
George Holt 14
Rosannah Holt 13
Rachael Holt 11
Ruth Holt 10
Mira Holt 1
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Re: Looking for help on this query--NL adding

Postby gardener » Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:27 pm

But William was at no. 41 in 1891 so maybe it is a mis-transcribed number?

1891
41 St Giles Street, Dudley
Piece: 2297
Folio: 112
Household Members:
Name Age
William Rose 39
Jane Rose 33
Arthur Rose 16
Everest Rose 13
William Rose 11
Samuel Rose 9
George H Rose 7
Risannah Rose 5
Lilly E Rose 2
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Re: Looking for help on this query--NL adding

Postby Northern Lass » Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:55 am

Thanks G

I just don't know to me Mrs D could be Mrs David?
That was how sometimes people were referred to ?

I am going to scour the deaths at St Thomas when I can get into archives.
I still think that 1891 is odd with her address...as soho.

will move this to brickwalls.
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