Guinne / Guinnet / Guinney – am I flogging a dead horse?

[Forty_Two]

Guinne / Guinnet / Guinney – am I flogging a dead horse?

Several years back I spent some time tracing back my paternal family tree and ground to halt in the early 1800’s

My father’s surname is Guinney – unfortunately his father’s surname was spelt Guinne and I found evidence of it also spelt as Guinnet. Many of them were illiterate and I suspect the Priest wrote it as it sounded when spoken. I am asking myself – as they were illiterate and the spelling kept changing and they came over from Ireland am I ‘flogging a dead horse’?

I obtained a copy of the marriage certificate for Hugh Guinne’s son Joseph GUINNE b.1843, (d.<1901) of Mulliner Street, Little Bolton who married Mary Jane McGill or Magill on 26th June 1869.
Mary Jane GUINNE nee McGill b.circa1845 in Ireland later of Prospect Street, Little Bolton (died 1907?)
Marriage certificate states Joseph 26yo, Mary 24yo, Joseph’s father Hugh Guinne (deceased)

From that information do I stand any chance of finding Hugh Guinne if so where do I go / where do I start?

[Forty_Two]

Additional information I have for anyone who is inclined to help me is?

I (easily) got a copy of Robert Guinne’s birth certificate from the UK GRO which shows that he was born in Salford in September 1882 and that his father was Joseph Guinne and mother was Mary Magill. Joseph and Mary’s marriage certificate suggests that Joseph was born in 1843 but a simple search of the GRO for him brings up nothing. I had suspected that Joseph’s father Hugh, had come over from Ireland but I am now wondering if Hugh came over from Ireland with his family and including Joseph who (because he does not come up on the UK GRO search) may also have been born in Ireland (which no doubt makes my search even more difficult).

[Jimmy]

Looks like Joseph and his wife were both born in Ireland.

1871. 13 Richmond Terrace, Little Bolton, Lancashire.
Bridget Ward 56. Head.
James Ward 26. Son.
Elizabeth Ward 18. Daughter.
Catherine Rippel 37. Boarder.
Joseph Quiney 28. Lodger. Labourer in iron foundary. born Ireland.
Mary A Quiney 26. Lodger's Wife. Flax spinner. born Ireland.
Joseph Quiney 1. Lodger's Son. Prescot, Lancashire.

GUINEA, JOSEPH MCGILL.
GRO Reference: 1870 M Quarter in PRESCOT Volume 08B Page 617.

[Forty_Two]

Jimmy, Thanks for the helpful info . . . yesterday I did some (google) searching of info in Ireland and I may be wrong but I got the impression that anying earlier than 1900 was 'difficult'.

[Jimmy]

I tried to find them on the immigration list, but there was nothing on Ancestry before 1878.

[gardener]

Is this another child born after the 1871 census? (from Lancs Parish Clerks site)

Baptism: 25 Nov 1871 Cathedral Church of St John the Evangelist, Salford, Lancashire
Margarita Guiny - filia Josephi Guiny & Mariae Joannae (formerly McGill)
Born: 10 Nov 1871
Abode: 4 Ogden St.
Godparents: Carolus Courtnay; Ann Magee
Baptised By: C. J. Huybers, M.C.
Register: Baptisms 1867 - 1872, Page 606
Source: Original Register

If so, it might be worth looking at these two marriages at the same church

Marriage: 7 Aug 1869 Cathedral Church of St John the Evangelist, Salford, Lancashire
Michaelem McGuire - Pendleton
Mariam Guiney - Pendleton
Groom's Parents: Michaelis McGuire & Catharinae McGuire
Bride's Parents: Hugonis Guiney & Sarae Guiney
Witnesses: Jacobo McGrane, ex Pendleton; Anna McGee, ex Pendleton
Married by Petrus Canonicus Benoit, M. C.
Register: Marriages 1863 - 1893, Page 241
Source: Original Register at LRO

Marriages Sep 1869
GUINNEY Mary Salford 8d 106
MAGUIRE Michael Salford 8d 106


Marriage: 14 Sep 1867 Cathedral Church of St John the Evangelist, Salford, Lancashire
Joannem Garaghty -
Annam Joannam Guiney - Pendleton
Groom's Parents: Thomae Garaghty & Elizabethae Garaghty
Bride's Parents: Hugonis Guiney & Sarae Guiney
Witnesses: Franciscus Dillon; Margaritta McVey
Married by Henricus Beswick, M. C.
Register: Marriages 1863 - 1893, Page 159
Source: Original Register at LRO

Marriages Sep 1867
Garrity John Salford 8d 107
Guiney Ann Jane Salford 8d 107


Are the girls from Ireland? Can you find them under married names in 1871?

(love Ireland, hate Irish names in the census)

[Forty_Two]

Thanks Gardner for the helpful post.
I've done a bit more digging and found some census info. The thing that strikes me most (and I presume I am not alone) is the poverty and hardship they endured. I don't know if it is particularly peculiar to Irish immigrants but the three generations before my father clearly lived in grinding poverty. That’s what they endured in England which they chose as a better life than what they had in Ireland! My father (b.1924) was born into poverty, he was the youngest on 13 children, half of whom did not reach their teens, his father dropped dead in front of him at the age of 49 when my father was 7 years old. I remember my father telling me that there was enough shoes in the house all the children to wear shoes at the same time. I am humbled recognising the debt of gratitude that I and my children owe my father for his HARD work in clawing his way out of the gutters of the bomb sites of Hanky Park Salford and into the light.

Below is as far as I can get and suspects it may be impossible to go back further.

Joseph GUINNE b.1843 Ireland (Great GF) d. <1901 (Father - Hugh Guinne b.? Ireland)
1861 Soveriegn Street, Bolton Mary Magill, spinster 19 years old (a lodger)
26th June 1869 Mulliner Street, Little Bolton Married - wife - Mary Jane Magill
1871 13 Richmond Terrace, Bolton Joseph with Mary + 1 child
1881 5, Williams Court, Salford, Joseph with Mary + 4 children
1891 2, David Street, Salford Joseph with Mary + 6 children
1901 45 Chaney Street Salford Mary Jane Magill and Robert (Joseph dead)

[kdwoodie]

Is this Joseph ?

Name Josh Guiney
Baptism Age 0
Event Type Baptism
Birth Date 1843
Baptism Date 9 Apr 1843
Baptism Place St Patrick's, Belfast city, Antrim, Ireland
Parish Variants Donegall Street, Belfast, St. Patrick's
Diocese Down and Connor
Father
Hugh Guiney
Mother
Sarah McDennell

[gardener]

My dad's family had a pretty terrible existence too, but I think the Irish immigrants did have it very hard.

I think this one is daughter of the Michael and Mary (Marriage above)
MCGUIRE, MARY MARGARET GUINEY
GRO Reference: 1870 D Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 10

Baptism: 28 May 1870 Mother of God and St James, Pendleton, Lancashire
Maria Margarita Maguire - filia Michaelis Maguire & Mariae (formerly Ginny)
Born: 21 May 1870
Abode: 26 Borough St.
Godparents: Patricius McIntyre; Margarita McIntyre
Baptised By: Gustavo W. Saffenreuter
Register: Baptisms 1868 - 1877, Page 70, Entry 340
Source: Salford Diocesan Archives

and this a son for John and Ann?

Baptism: 10 Feb 1872 Mother of God and St James, Pendleton, Lancashire
Thomas Geraghty - filius Joannis Geraghty & Annae (formerly Guiny)
Born: 31 Jan 1872
Abode: Borough St.
Godparents: Joannis O'Kaley; Maria Doily
Baptised By: Camille D'Hont
Register: Baptisms 1868 - 1877, Page 119, Entry 577
Source: Salford Diocesan Archives


Maybe if you can expand the family sideways and then look at all the census for them you might strike lucky with a clue for birth places. At least if these turn out to be the same family then you have a first name for the mother, and a family group might be easier to find in Ireland

[Forty_Two]

Thanks kdwoodie and gardener for the helpful posts

Josh Guiney, b 1843, Belfast city, Antrim, Ireland, Father Hugh Guiney, Mother
Sarah McDennell

Certainley the dates look good . . . what would confirn or deny this is me finding the name of Jospeh's mother (the Joseph that married Mary in 1869 and was living in Mulliner Street, Little Bolton in 1869). I had presumed that as Joseph was just 23 in 1869 he had come over as a child with his parents but I suppose it could be possible that he came over bu himself in his late teens? Where to look?

[gardener]

Thanks kdwoodie and gardener for the helpful posts

Josh Guiney, b 1843, Belfast city, Antrim, Ireland, Father Hugh Guiney, Mother
Sarah McDennell

Certainley the dates look good . . . what would confirn or deny this is me finding the name of Jospeh's mother (the Joseph that married Mary in 1869 and was living in Mulliner Street, Little Bolton in 1869). I had presumed that as Joseph was just 23 in 1869 he had come over as a child with his parents but I suppose it could be possible that he came over bu himself in his late teens? Where to look?

In 1881 census Joseph was 38, so that would fit well with the baptism that kdwoodie found.
There is also an Anna Jane Guinea on ancestry, baptised in Antrim. I can't see the details myself, but does that fit with the marriage I posted above?

Marriages Sep 1867
Garrity John Salford 8d 107
Guiney Ann Jane Salford 8d 107

[kdwoodie]

Name Ann Jane Guinea
Baptism Age 0
Event Type Baptism
Birth Date 1837
Baptism Date 31 Mar 1837
Baptism Place St Patrick's, Belfast city, Antrim, Ireland
Parish Variants Donegall Street, Belfast, St. Patrick's
Diocese Down and Connor
Father
Hugh Guinea
Mother
Sarah McDonell

GUINEY Ann J GARRITY John 1867 Salford Register Office or Registrar Attended Salford SAL/19/132

Name Michael Guinea
Baptism Age 0
Event Type Baptism
Birth Date 1838
Baptism Date 10 Dec 1838
Baptism Place St Patrick's, Belfast city, Antrim, Ireland
Parish Variants Donegall Street, Belfast, St. Patrick's
Diocese Down and Connor
Father
Hugh Guinea
Mother
Sarah McDonell

[Forty_Two]

Thanks for all the helpful posts. . . . as I said, I belive I need the name of the mother of Joseph, b.1843, son of Hugh married to Mary McGill in 186 to tie him in with a Joseph Guinne in Ireland and I can't see any way I can find out what his mothers name was - he does not appear to be on a UK electoral role on 1861 and I can't think of any other record that might have that info ?

[kdwoodie]

I think his mother is Sarah McDonnell or variant
.

Not sure when Civil Registration started in Ireland, you would need a birth cert to verify.

[gardener]

Name Ann Jane Guinea
Baptism Age 0
Event Type Baptism
Birth Date 1837
Baptism Date 31 Mar 1837
Baptism Place St Patrick's, Belfast city, Antrim, Ireland
Parish Variants Donegall Street, Belfast, St. Patrick's
Diocese Down and Connor
Father
Hugh Guinea
Mother
Sarah McDonell

GUINEY Ann J GARRITY John 1867 Salford Register Office or Registrar Attended Salford SAL/19/132

Name Michael Guinea
Baptism Age 0
Event Type Baptism
Birth Date 1838
Baptism Date 10 Dec 1838
Baptism Place St Patrick's, Belfast city, Antrim, Ireland
Parish Variants Donegall Street, Belfast, St. Patrick's
Diocese Down and Connor
Father
Hugh Guinea
Mother
Sarah McDonell

Thanks!
I'm pretty sure that Ann Jane was Joseph's sister. She went on to marry John Garachty/Garrity, and they had kids baptised in Lancashire before moving to Yorkshire.

In support of this, here is Joseph's daughter Ann Jane, baptised at Pendleton

Baptism: 30 Apr 1876 Mother of God and St James, Pendleton, Lancashire
Anna Johanna Ginnea - filia Joseph Ginnea & Mariae Johannae (formerly McGill)
Born: 16 Feb 1876
Abode: 24 Borough St.
Godparent: Sarah Emma Sowbutts
Baptised By: Gustavo W. Saffenreuter
Register: Baptisms 1868 - 1877, Page 314, Entry 1549
Source: Salford Diocesan Archives

and the address is very close to this babptism of Ann Jane's daughter

Baptism: 8 Feb 1874 Mother of God and St James, Pendleton, Lancashire
Sara Gerrity - filia Joannis Gerrity & Johannae (formerly Guinea)
Born: 28 Jan 1874
Abode: 36 Borough St.
Godparents: Henricus Hamill; Maria Anna Lorde
Baptised By: Rich. A. Power
Register: Baptisms 1868 - 1877, Page 196, Entry 958
Source: Salford Diocesan Archives

and son Thomas

Baptism: 10 Feb 1872 Mother of God and St James, Pendleton, Lancashire
Thomas Geraghty - filius Joannis Geraghty & Annae (formerly Guiny)
Born: 31 Jan 1872
Abode: Borough St.
Godparents: Joannis O'Kaley; Maria Doily
Baptised By: Camille D'Hont
Register: Baptisms 1868 - 1877, Page 119, Entry 577
Source: Salford Diocesan Archives

Though in between Anna Jane had a different address (not unusual, people rented and moved)

Baptism: 25 Jul 1868 Mother of God and St James, Pendleton, Lancashire
Eliza Joanna Garrety - filia Joannis Garrety & Joannae (formerly Guinney)
Born: 21 Jul 1868
Abode: 13 Ashton Str.
Godparents: Patricius Garrety; Anna Lyons
Baptised By: B. Desplenter, M.C.
Register: Baptisms 1868 - 1877, Page 15, Entry 73
Source: Salford Diocesan Archives

This is Ann Jane's family in 1881, after they moved away

Whitwood, Yorkshire
John Garrety 29 Head Dublin, Ireland
Ann Garrety 32 Wife Belfast, Ireland
Elizah J. Garrety 12 Daughter Pendleton
Thomas Garrety 8 Son
Sarah Garrety 7 Daughter Pendleton
Mary Garrety 3 Daughter Whitwood
John H. Garrety Son

So it looks as though a family group moved over from Ireland (Belfast/Antrim) after 1843 and before 1867.

There was a John Guiney married Mary Jackson in 1861. I don't know if he was also a relative. Might be worth trying to find him in the census. Couple of kids if that helps

Marriage: 20 Apr 1861 Cathedral Church of St John the Evangelist, Salford, Lancashire
Joannem Guiney - Salford
Mariam Jackson - Salford
Groom's Parents: Jacobi Guiney & Birgittae Guiney
Bride's Parents: Davidis Jackson & Annae Jackson
Witnesses: Jacobo Guiney, Salford; Catharina Guiney, Salford
Married by Petrus Canonicus Benoit Miss. Coadj.
Register: Marriages 1856 - 1863, Page 272
Source: Original Register at LRO Preston

Baptism: 2 Feb 1862 Cathedral Church of St John the Evangelist, Salford, Lancashire
Maria Helena Guiney - filia Joannis Guiney & Mariae (formerly Jackson)
Born: 16 Jan 1862
Abode: 6 Charles St. off Hampson Str.
Godparents: Joseph Howard; Maria Nadin
Baptised By: Petro Can. Benoit Miss. Coadj.
Register: Baptisms 1858 - 1863, Page 485
Source: Original Register at LRO Preston

Baptism: 17 Jan 1864 Cathedral Church of St John the Evangelist, Salford, Lancashire
Jacobus Malachius Guiney - filius Joannis Guiney & Mariae (formerly Jackson)
Born: 31 Dec 1863
Abode: 5 Cow Lane
Godparents: Gulielmus Evans; Cath. Guiney
Baptised By: R. Brindle M.C.
Register: Baptisms 1863 - 1867, Page 63
Source: Original Register at Lancashire Archives