Help with Crook Family Preston area

Main forum for discussion of Genealogy topics across the Counties and elsewhere.

Moderators: grangers14, admin, Northern Lass

Help with Crook Family Preston area

Postby Tony Wappel » Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:05 pm

Hello Everyone,

Joining from the US. Have been researching since 1977 when I was just 14 years old. The internet sure has made things easier!! But, I am still stumped with some of my English ancestors. My 3rd great grandfather, William Crook, was born in Brindle/Withnell, Lancashire in 1811 to Thomas & Elen Crook. My mystery is what is Elen's maiden name? The Crooks, I believe were mostly Catholic (but have found records elsewhere). I have checked the Catholic Record Society publications as well as other public record sites to find out that William is the son of Thomas and Elen. (I already knew this! :P ) So I've tried another route. Two of William Crook's siblings married in Preston. One was Mary Ann Crook (born abt 1815) married Roger Dilworth (b abt 1814) in Preston in 1838. Also, a sister, Bridget Crook (b. 1815) married John Woodcock (b 1811) in Preston in 1834. Would it be possible for someone to check these two marriage records to see if they list the mother's maiden name? Also, Mary Ann Dilworth did stay in Preston and died in 1885. Would her death record show her mother's maiden name? Finally, are there any genealogies that include Roger Dilworth, perhaps showing his wife's parents? Thank you so much for any and all leads.

Tony Wappel
Tony Wappel
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:01 am

Re: Help with Crook Family Preston area

Postby Frodo » Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:44 pm

I have been researching the Dilworths on Ancestry as I am descended from them on my mother's side but have been unable to verify facts about Mary Ann. I have had a hint appear that I haven't added for the 1841 Census. It has a Mary Crook living in Bolton le Moors with parents named Peter and Margaret The age is about right but as it's Mary not Mary Ann I have not yet added it. I have looked and there are several siblings but not a Bridget.
Frodo
 
Posts: 369
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:12 pm
Location: Didsbury, Manchester

Re: Help with Crook Family Preston area

Postby Tony Wappel » Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:14 am

Thanks for the Welcomes,

Frodo, There is an 1841 Census Record for a Roger Dilworth and Mary Ann living in Preston. Pretty sure that is Mary Ann Crook. I sent you a pm with a link in case you needed it.

Tony
Tony Wappel
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:01 am

Re: Help with Crook Family Preston area

Postby gardener » Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:46 pm

Hi and welcome

I looked at this last night and I agree that the census for Roger and Mary Ann looks right. But her birth seems to be Preston in each census.

I can also see what seems to be Bridget plus husband and kids emigrating with William and three young children, plus Ellen and the older children, some of whom appear in the 1850 census with Thomas.

But despite the unusual first names I cannot find baptisms to fit Lewis/Louis, Bridget, Sylvester, Alexander etc.

Are you sure that William Crook born in Brindle/Withnell, Lancashire in 1811 to Thomas & Ellen Crook is the right one? Do you have any other baptisms? Or any other reason to make this link?

Just as a general note, English marriages of this period would not mention the mother at all and certainly not her maiden name. Similarly baptisms would not normally give the mother's maiden name though occasionally non-conformist registers do.

It is unfortunate that the family emigrated before the 1841 census!
"The present is the key to the past" - Charles Lyell
User avatar
gardener
 
Posts: 3223
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:49 pm
Location: Iceland

Re: Help with Crook Family Preston area

Postby Tony Wappel » Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:43 am

Thank you Gardener. It has been many years that I have researched William Crook. I started with his Death Record, indicating he was born about 1811 and that his supposed father Thomas Crook was born in England. His marriage record in the US said his parents were Thomas & Elen (one "L). Several now deceased genealogical cohorts had researched the LDS records on microfilm back in the 1980s and concluded he was from Lancashire. (Another line that settled in the same part of the US was also from Lancashire, so I really never questioned the location.) Then a few years ago, I discovered the Lancashire Parish Register Online Project and did an entire county search for William Crook b. 1800-1820 with parents Thomas & Elen. The only one that came up was 1811 in Brindle/Withnell. The year matched census and death record. I also checked the Catholic Record Society transcriptions for St Joseph RC Church in Brindle and saw several more Crooks with parents of Thomas & Elen. Of course, I never saw William in that set of records! So, I started following the Woodcock and Dilworth lines as I know positively they are his siblings (per Real Estate & Probate Records of the father Thomas). Was hoping to discover the mother via researching those two lines. Both Bridget and Mary Ann were married in Preston. I know Mary Ann Dilworth (born Crook) died in 1885 in Preston. Do you think her death record might have her mother's name? As for all of those later children with odd names (Lewis, Sylvester, etc) I think they are of a second wife. I cannot figure out where they were born at all, but am not overly concerned about them. I am most concerned with Bridget, Mary Ann and William, as I believe they are of the same mother.

Sorry for the long post, but your question gave me an opportunity to review my train of thought and research method. So thank you for asking!
Tony Wappel
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:01 am

Re: Help with Crook Family Preston area

Postby Frodo » Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:37 pm

Just a thought on location. I have the Dilworths in my family via my mother's side. A lot of the family lived in and around Bowland and Chipping and several were Quakers and emigrated to America to preach. I was born in Blackpool and know both these areas are rural and Preston is the main administrative town so might it have appeared on certificates/records for this reason?
Frodo
 
Posts: 369
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:12 pm
Location: Didsbury, Manchester

Re: Help with Crook Family Preston area

Postby Tony Wappel » Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:30 pm

Frodo,
I thought that too so was okay when I saw all of the Brindle entries at St James and also St Joseph RC Church. When I do Ancestry searches for Crook, Woodcock and Dilworth marriages (1790s-1830s), I keep getting a reference to St John's in Preston, but I cant seem to get far enough to see the actual records. Cant tell if this is a Catholic Church or a Church of England Church. The Crooks seem to have records with both churches which sometime confuse me even more. Of course, it might not matter as I am learning the records from that time rarely mention the name of the mother.

Also can someone help clarify the different layers of government that hold records? Here in the US,from smallest to largest layer is town, county, state, and federal. Plus you have church (parish) records. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places?

Thanks so much.
Tony
Tony Wappel
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:01 am

Re: Help with Crook Family Preston area

Postby gardener » Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:02 pm

Hi Tony

I'll have a go at some answers - no doubt someone will correct me if I am wrong about anything.

Until 1753 it was possible to marry pretty much anywhere in England, as long as a clergyman performed the ceremony. This led to some irregular marriages and the 1753 Marriage Act made it so that all legal marriages had to take place in a Church of England church and parental permission was required if bride or groom were under 21. There was an exemption to this Act for Jews and Quakers, but it did mean that Catholics had to marry in a C of E church if it was to be legal, even though baptisms and burials could be in an RC church. No doubt many Catholics would marry in two places because of this, though I think that some only had a Catholic marriage even though this would have no legal status.

In 1836 there was a new Act which permitted civil marriages too, and also marriage in religious buildings that had been registered - but still only if a Registrar was present.

After late in 1837 (not sure of the date) civil records were introduced. Initially birth registrations were voluntary I think (not sure about that) but soon it was required to register a birth within six weeks. Similarly deaths were registered, and also marriages. These would be at the local registry office, based on the address of the event.

Before 1837 there were only church or chapel records. I've no RC people in my family so I've seen little of those records (happily since they tend to be in Latin!) and non-conformist records can vary a lot. C of E records were kept in the Church as parish records, until latterly when most have been sent to the local Archives. It was also required to submit a copy of parish records to the local bishop, and they are also usually to be found in the Archives now - but confusingly they may not be the same one as the parish records, for historical reasons.

You might also come across marriage banns. In theory they would be read for four consecutive Sundays in the church where the marriage was to take place, but also in the parish church of the groom and bride if different. They tend not to give much information but are sometimes all that is available online.

Before 1837 you will probably only get the names of bride and groom, their age (full if over 21) and the name of their parish. Plus the names of two witnesses who may be family members or not - good to compare witnesses to other marriages at about the same time, often it was a church warden or somebody like that.

After 1837 you should get names and ages, occupation and address (sometimes a convenient address to avoid paying for extra sets of banns to be read), the name and occupation of the fathers and the names of the two witnesses.

Here is Bridget's, taken from http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html

Marriage: 3 Feb 1834 St John, Preston, Lancashire, England
John Woodcock - (X), Bachelor, this Parish
Bridget Crook - (X), Spinster, this Parish
Witness: Lewis Crook; Margaret Woodcock, (X)
Married by Banns by: Thos. Clark Curate
Register: Marriages 1833 - 1837, Page 38, Entry 112
Source: LDS Film 94015

You say that you found William's baptism on that site, but I am concerned that he might belong to this couple

Marriage: 7 Jul 1801 St Andrew, Leyland, Lancashire, England
Thomas Crook - (X), Weaver, Leyland
Ellen Gorton - (X), Spinster, Leyland
Witness: Laurence Ainsworth; Nicholas Plaskett
Married by Banns by: Thomas Rebanks Curate
Register: Marriages 1793 - 1812, Page 117, Entry 469
Source: LDS Film 93952

It is hard to know, but I don't see why your Thomas and El(l)en would baptise him in a C of E church.

I can see a tree on Ancestry that has this couple attached to William and Bridget

Marriage: 1 Nov 1810 St John, Preston, Lancashire, England
Thomas Crook - (X), this parish
Ellen Hodgkinson - (X), this parish
Witness: Mary Crook, (X); Thomas Crook, (X)
Married by Banns by: James Penny Vicar
Register: Marriages 1805 - 1812, Page 207, Entry 828
Source: LDS Film 94013

Have you found RC baptisms for any of the children? Are they all at St Joseph's?

Finally, this is a useful site for seeing which churches were around the area https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Chorley
"The present is the key to the past" - Charles Lyell
User avatar
gardener
 
Posts: 3223
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:49 pm
Location: Iceland

Re: Help with Crook Family Preston area

Postby gardener » Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:17 pm

You have probably seen this https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Brindle/StJoseph

Since you have tracked down some of the parish records, are the baptisms helpful regarding address or any other details? Do you get the feeling that Thomas and Elen moved around much?
"The present is the key to the past" - Charles Lyell
User avatar
gardener
 
Posts: 3223
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:49 pm
Location: Iceland

Re: Help with Crook Family Preston area

Postby Tony Wappel » Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:35 am

Thanks Again Gardener! I will have to take some time to absorb your reply. A lot of information.

I double checked my William Crook. He indeed has a baptismal record at both the Catholic Church --St Joseph in Brindle AND the Church of England Church St James in Brindle. The dates are the exact same March 19, 1811 son of Thomas & Ellen Crook. The C of E record indicates Withnell as the abode. I cannot find Mary Ann or Bridget Crook, his sisters of interest. I think maybe Bridget might be Margaret Crook born 1813. Im confident of William being born in 1811. His entry on ship passenger list gives 28 in 1838. Very close. He is listed with the John & Bridget Woodcock, who also came to US. The Mary Ann Dilworth comes up in the estate paper of Thomas Crook who died in 1855. She is an heir. Took me forever to realize she stayed in England!!

I am fairly confident of the father--Thomas Crook's info. Born 1787 to William & Bridget Crook. Baptized at St Joseph in Brindle. My confidence is his age matches fairly close the US census record of 1850. Also his mother Bridget did come to the US and is living near him. Her original tombstone said wife of William. That is what gave me my starting point of Brindle. Plus almost all of the other English families in Monroe Co, Illinois had migrated from Lancashire.

Given Thomas' age, I do not see him marrying Ellen Gorton in 1801 as 14 year old. His marriage to Ellen Hodgkinson seems more likely--23 year old. The reason I'm hooked on Hodgkinson is also because the Woodcock and Dilworths also married in St John's C of E Church in Preston. I'm supposing Ellen's "home" church. You must have seen my tree on Ancestry when you spotted the Thomas Crook & Ellen Hodgkinson group. I think I'm the only one of the Crook researchers in the US that believe this.

I really dont think Thomas & Ellen Crook moved much until the mid to late 1810s. To where I have no idea until they show up in the US. I also checked Liverpool, from where they left, but to no avail. I cannot find records for any of those later children but they are of lesser concern. Very odd. Maybe they decided to forgo any church affiliations!

Thanks for those links. I will check them out.

Tony
Tony Wappel
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:01 am


Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests