*ARC TBC* Confused!

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*ARC TBC* Confused!

Postby Mrs.S2012 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:45 pm

Hey all, wanted to run something past you guys as I'm getting myself into a right muddle!
Ok so my Great Grandad is Alfred Albert Collingbourne b1882. I know he married my Great Nan Rose Mary Fitzgerald in 1904 and I have found that marriage record, it says his father is Alfred Albert Collingbourne, an Engineer.
I have found the family on the census records and it looks like that Alfred Albert snr was married 3 times. I found marriage records that seemed to back his up, first marriage was to a Sarah Ann Birch, second was to a Martha Adelaide Pealling and third was to an Ellen Williams?
Now I'm confused because I'm trying to figure out who his father was and entries are different on each marriage record. On the first marriage in 1871 it says his father is George Collingbourne, a Labourer. In the second marriage record it lists his father as John Collingbourne, a Dairy man. In the third it lists his father as John Collingbourne, a Commerical Traveller??
I also found a baptism record for an Alfred Albert and it lists his parents as Harriett and George - a milkman?
So now I am confused. pretty sure his father was probably George the milkman but not sure why it says different things on the marriage certs? I want to be sure I have matched him to the correct wives and that I have the right father before I continue?
I hope this rambling makes sense!
Opinions welcomed!
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Re: Confused!

Postby peterd » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:36 pm

could he be called john george ? and using his middle name as his first especially if he had a son called either john or george ?
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Re: Confused!

Postby Mrs.S2012 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:20 am

I did think that but it's the change of occupation which confuses me. I think his father died when he was young as it shows a 12 year old Alfred living with his widowed mother in the 1861 census.. So he wouldn't have been alive to change occupation between marriages.
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Re: Confused!

Postby gardener » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:08 pm

Certificates only ever say what people want them to say!

The 1841 census has

George Collingbourne 38 milkman
Harriet Collingbourne 34
George Collingbourne 15
John Collingbourne 11
Harriett Collingbourne 7
Richard Collingbourne 5
Elizabeth Collingbourne 3
Alfred Collingbourne 6 Mo

and I think this is John's marriage

Name: John Collingbourne
Gender: Male
Marriage Age: 23
Record Type: Marriage
Birth Date: abt 1829
Marriage Date: 18 Apr 1852
Marriage Place: St Philip, Bethnal Green, Tower Hamlets, England
Father: John George Collingbourne (milkman)
Spouse: Louisa Whatley

but George seems to be this one

Name: George Thomas Collingbourne
Gender: Male
Marriage Age: 59
Record Type: Marriage
Birth Date: abt 1826
Marriage Date: 26 Dec 1885
Marriage Place: All Saints, Camden Town, Camden, England
Father: George Collingbourne (grocer, deceased)
Spouse: Alice Reader

and grocer is George snr's occupation on George jnr's baptism record. [And on John's]

But a couple of the girls give him as a cowkeeper so that seems to have been his main occupation.

So I would say that he was John George Collingbourne and mostly a milkman/dairyman/cowkeeper. Perhaps by 1908 it seemed a bit odd to have a cowkeeper for a father, and milkman had changed in meaning? Who knows :-)
Last edited by gardener on Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Confused!

Postby Mrs.S2012 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:19 pm

I think I do have the right details then.. I suppose if Alfred's father died before he was 12 he maybe wasn't sure of his occupation?? Although he hasn't put his father as deceased on the marriage cert, which is what made me question it. I'm just being careful not to assume anything!
Everything else seems to fall into place though so I think I do have the right information.
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Re: Confused!

Postby Jimmy » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:28 pm

What you have to remember an occupations can between events,



There was only Alfred Collingbourne about 1850,

Collingbourne on image,

1851. Limehouse, Middlesex.
Geo Wllingbourne 47. Milkman. Badsworth, Gloucestershire.
Harriet Wllingbourne 40. Stepney, Middlesex.
Rosina Wllingbourne 7. Limehouse, Middlesex.
Caroline Wllingbourne 4. Limehouse, Middlesex.
Alfred Wllingbourne 2. Limehouse, Middlesex.

COLLINGBOURNE, ROSINA REBECCA mother JONES.
GRO Reference: 1844 M Quarter in STEPNEY Volume 02 Page 487.

COLLINGBOURNE, CAROLINE mother JONES.
GRO Reference: 1846 M Quarter in STEPNEY Volume 02 Page 504.

COLLINGBOURNE, ALFRED mother GEORGE.
GRO Reference: 1849 J Quarter in STEPNEY Volume 02 Page 499.

ancestry,
Image available,

George Collingbourne. Widower. Milkman, father John. Collingbourne. farmer.
Harriet Jones. Widow. father John Sharratt. saddler.
Marriage Date: 16 Sep 1840.
Marriage Place: St George in the East, Tower Hamlets.
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Re: Confused!

Postby Mrs.S2012 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:45 pm

It was only because he's consistently been a milkman throughout, and on his daughters marriage records he is down as a milkman/dairyman/cow keeper. Its only on Alfred's where it says something completely different which made me question if I had the right records. In other ways they do tie up though.
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Re: Confused!

Postby Jimmy » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:01 pm

Sounds like he could be a farm labourer.
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Re: Confused!

Postby Jimmy » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:11 pm

Harriet's first marriage,

Ancestry no image,

Harriet Sharratt.
Richard Edyvean Jones
Marriage Date: 19 Mar 1829.
Marriage Place: Saint Dunstan,Stepney,London.
FHL Film Number: 596923, 801578, 801579, 801580, 801581, 801582, 801583, 801584, 801585.
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Re: Confused!

Postby Mrs.S2012 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:08 pm

Ooh thats interesting.. So they were both married previously.. I haven't started looking into them yet as wanted to be sure first I had the right people.
There is a Harriet Jones living with the family in a later census, she's down as granddaughter.. So she's obviously come from this marriage im guessing
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Re: Confused!

Postby Jimmy » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:56 pm

Jimmy wrote:1851. Limehouse, Middlesex.
Geo Wllingbourne 47. Milkman. Badsworth, Gloucestershire.
Harriet Wllingbourne 40. Stepney, Middlesex.
Rosina Wllingbourne 7. Limehouse, Middlesex.
Caroline Wllingbourne 4. Limehouse, Middlesex.
Alfred Wllingbourne 2. Limehouse, Middlesex.

Alfred from 1841 census,

COLLINGBOURNE, ALFRED JONES.
GRO Reference: 1840 D Quarter in STEPNEY Volume 02 Page 427.

Died,
COLLINGBOURN, ALFRED age 0.
GRO Reference: 1841 D Quarter in STEPNEY Volume 02 Page 312.

Why as this one got George as mothers maiden name?

COLLINGBOURNE, ALFRED mother GEORGE.
GRO Reference: 1849 J Quarter in STEPNEY Volume 02 Page 499.
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Re: Confused!

Postby SRD » Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:55 am

There's quite a lot about cowkeepers in t'internet, including this one http://www.johnhearfield.com/Cowkeeping ... _Intro.htm
Currently investigating the Hillmans of Sussex.
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Re: Confused!

Postby SRD » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:12 am

For a more academic view of cowkeeping in cities this essay https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _1790-1914 also has dates which may be of interest.
Currently investigating the Hillmans of Sussex.
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Re: Confused!

Postby Mrs.S2012 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:13 pm

Thank you!
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Re: Confused!

Postby grangers14 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:00 pm

Have you completed this?
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