Delicate subject ? impossible conundrum

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Delicate subject ? impossible conundrum

Postby JerryS » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:14 pm

Trying to trace "maiden' surname of a mother - suggestions gratefully received.

The woman lived as 'husband and wife' -'Husband' possibly already married so no official marriage certificate

'Husband' dies 2 weeks after birth of daughter. Mother uses 'Husband's' surname for her and her daughter any suggestions on how I find out mother's true surname? Continues to use this surname for the rest of her life

I know she was Scottish, born 1920 or 1921 ? Glasgow area possibly served in the WRAF. Worked in the hospitality industry - probably not officially tips and board and lodging

Death Certificate uses her adopted surname.

Is this an impossible set of circumstances to research?

Thanks for reading
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Re: Delicate subject ? impossible conundrum

Postby Northern Lass » Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:28 am

Birth certificate of daughter should include mothers maiden name.
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Re: Delicate subject ? impossible conundrum

Postby JerryS » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:20 am

Thanks for the comment I appreciate that it should - but it doesn't!
The Mother used the 'husbands' surname as her own. Mother and daughter's surnames are that of the 'husband'
'Husband' died 2 weeks after daughter was born and mother lived under 'husbands' name for the rest of her life - death cert confirms.
Hence my question is it going to be impossible to trace mothers 'maiden' name?

I did wonder about trying to find her NHS number - I know where she died but NHS numbers only came into being 1995/6 I understand and she was dead by then.

If as I know she was Scottish and served in the WRAF during the war and we know she was born in 1920/21 is that of any help- Could I look at WRAF records of suitably aged women with Scottish origin?
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Re: Delicate subject ? impossible conundrum

Postby gardener » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:26 pm

Hi

You don't say what year the daughter was born, or where., but I'm assuming that this was after the war? So any war records would be in the maiden name? Which you don't know.
In any case, WW2 service records can only be applied for by next-of-kin, and I don't know if you are that.
If she was in England in 1939 then you might find her by searching the 1939 Register. The Scottish one is not online, and you probably have to know the surname before you can request an extract from it.
I don't think the National Health would be at all helpful because of confidentiality issues.
Could she actually have had the same surname as her "husband"? Have you looked into that?
The daughter was not baptised I suppose?
And she died before 1969?
"The present is the key to the past" - Charles Lyell
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Re: Delicate subject ? impossible conundrum

Postby JerryS » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:24 pm

Hi Gardener
Thanks for the reply
Daughter still alive
I will look to see if there is any baptism record but assume it will have 'husband's' surname as all other documentation utilizes her 'husband's' name
'Wife' did not claim any benefits as knew daughter's birth certificate etc were incorrect and that there was no marriage certificate!!
She could I suppose have had same surname as 'husband' but that would have been a highly unusual coincidence
No the mother died in 1981/2

Not knowing mother's true surname stymies things somewhat when it comes to asking about WW2 matters!!
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Re: Delicate subject ? impossible conundrum

Postby ELF1989 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:43 pm

Would the daughter be willing to do an AncestryDNA test? By looking at her DNA matches, you may very well identify it :)
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Re: Delicate subject ? impossible conundrum

Postby JerryS » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:22 am

Hi ELF1989
I must admit I had not considered this possibility. I am not sure about the practicalities of a DNA test - could you possibly expand?
Are you saying if the daughter had a DNA test it could be matched with a close (maternal relative) assuming of course they had a test too?
I do know exclusive maternal DNA is carried in the mitochondria.
Daughter is still alive- I will try and contact and ask - but if you could expand on the practicalities that would be great.
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Re: Delicate subject ? impossible conundrum

Postby gardener » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:48 pm

"No the mother died in 1981/2"

Death certificates after 1969 "should" have the date of birth on (assuming it was known). And so "should" the 1939 register I think. So I was wondering if that would help narrow down a search based only on first name. I appreciate that her daughter may not have known her mother's date of birth.
"The present is the key to the past" - Charles Lyell
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Re: Delicate subject ? impossible conundrum

Postby JerryS » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:41 pm

Hi Gardener
I like that suggestion!!
People tend to keep their first names don't they?
I will try that avenue sounds promising

All I now need to do is get to grips with how to interrogate the 1939 register
Any suggestions gratefully received
Thanks again
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Re: Delicate subject ? impossible conundrum

Postby gardener » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:05 pm

If she was living in England then you can try the Findymypast search.

If I put in my mother's first name and her date of birth (using the advanced search option) then there is only one result ... but my mother was given a very unusual first name :-)

So it depends on that really. And also if the birth date was entered correctly.

If you have an idea of where she might have been living then it could help.
"The present is the key to the past" - Charles Lyell
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Re: Delicate subject ? impossible conundrum

Postby JerryS » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:44 pm

Most helpful Gardner
I will let you know how I get on
Thanks
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Re: Delicate subject ? impossible conundrum

Postby Jimmy » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:05 pm

Try 1939 census with married name it might give maiden name.
Just trying to do my bit for BCC, bringing families back together.
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Re: Delicate subject ? impossible conundrum

Postby ELF1989 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:12 pm

With the DNA test, it's spit in a tube and send it off. Ancestry is the biggest database and you can download your DNA file from there and upload to other sites such as MyHeritage and GEDmatch but you can't upload a DNA file from another company to Ancestry.

When it comes back, you have your ethnicity details which isn't all that reliable and for me, not that interesting albeit it's why a lot of people do the tests.

What you also get is a list of people you share DNA with and the amount of DNA you share with them. The higher the amount of centimorgans, generally, the closer you are related. There's a "DNA Green Chart" which is a good headstart to giving a suggestion as to how far back the Most Recent Common Ancestor between you is.

If your tree is comprehensive and the details of people in your tree match those of someone you share DNA with, you get a "shared ancestor hint" which basically identifies the Most Recent Common Ancestor between you. However, given computers are essentially stupid, if there's a slight different in the details, it won't consider them the same person.

Most of your matches won't have a Shared Ancestor Hint for and what you need to do then is compare your tree to their tree to see if you can work out the MRCA. There's various tools to help you do this although they all rely on the other person having a public tree;

1) he computer will identify shared surnames in both of your direct ancestors
2) you can view a map of the birth locations of people in their tree so if you have a very location centred tree (I do - my family are from Lye and Cradley for hundreds of years) I can look at which of their ancestors are from this location and that gives me a head start in who i'm looking for in my tree
3) it will also tell you the people who share DNA with both of you

It's a whole new ball game of research :) But it doesn't lie ... trees and paperwork can be wrong but the DNA isn't.

In your case, if the daughter took a DNA test you would hopefully be able to find some close relatives who could unlock that surname for you by their trees, or pick up on a surname that keeps cropping up in other trees that you can research.

If you're on facebook, I can recommend you joining a few groups such as AncestryDNA Matching and just watching. It will all seem like goobledegook to begin with but you'll very quickly get your head around it.

That's just a very brief introduction into what you can do with DNA. There's a whole load more really neat things you can do but best to get your head round that first.

Also, Black Friday is coming up and there will undoubtedly be some really good deals on.
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Re: Delicate subject ? impossible conundrum

Postby JerryS » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:50 pm

Hello Forum
Further to the suggestions above re using find my past and the 1939 register......

I have discovered that if I type in DOB and first names of the mother the system either regards her as having died under her birth name (obviously not correct) or as having migrated via boat (again incorrect).

If type in DOB and first names with Scotland and civil birth sections selected I get zero hits.

First names are Margaret and Anne, DOB 1921 in Scotland

Is this because the system does not allow visualisation of living individuals under 100 - will I have to wait until 2022?
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Re: Delicate subject ? impossible conundrum

Postby Jimmy » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:55 pm

What was her married surname, and date of birth
Just trying to do my bit for BCC, bringing families back together.
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