Genealogy Forum UK

LindaR wrote:Sorry. I wasn't clear. Our Henry Jones, carman, is the father of Henry Thomas born 1881 and the mother, Mary Jones maiden name Lennard. The address on the birth cert is the same as Henry Jones and Mary Sullivan on the 1881 census, 20 Perseverance Street. Surely it has to be an error.

So you have a certif for "our" Henry Jones which matches the addy on census but the maiden name of mother is Lennard instead of Sullivan?
otherwise it is the correct certif...and you think a mistake in surname when entered?

Yes, that's right.

I have certificates now for all children except Eleanor. It seems an Ellen Sullivan in the same area also married a Jones so needed to make sure none of them were hers.

So we have:

1874 Mary Elizabeth
1875. Henry James
1881. Henry Thomas
1883. Frederick James
1885. Alice Margaret

all Henry Jones and Mary formerly Sullivan except for Henry Thomas which gives former name as Lennard.

Marys cert does give Henry's occupation as a leather something? but all the others show him as a carman.

I did also speak to Southwark to see if they could help with Eleanor's birth registration but unable to search on date of birth. I also rang GRO and gave them all the info we had to do a search but they came back with nothing.

I was just looking again. Did Henry marry again to Rebecca Mary Selby?
On Christopher Gaggs marriage cert it has Alice Jones and ? as witness, looks like it starts with a B.
Eleanor signs as Eleanor but on her fathers marriage (well that's if it her! I am presuming!) It is signed Ellen. The other witness William Thomas Jones.
From her marriage signature and her fathers witness, them 2 signatures do no look alike to me?

Henry did marry a third time to Mary Rebecca or Rebecca Mary. Her name changes on all the records but she was born Mary Rebecca Gratwick. Henry was her second husband.

William Thomas is Henry's brother. I only discovered Henry's mother and siblings a few hours ago and it may be that Ellen is a sister in law. I haven't got that far yet. His first wife, Mary Sullivan, also has a sister Ellen who married a Jones so it could possibly be her.

I just noticed too that the marriage to Rebecca, Henry says his father is William Thomas. His marriage to Frances it says William Henry. Does the marriage to Mary show a middle name?

No, it just shows William Jones decd, engineer.

The only reason I was able to connect him with the other marriages was by the address, 167 Bermondsey Street. This appears on his son Albert's first marriage certificate, Albert's army pension records for his father and Henry's death cert registered by his widow, M R Jones at that address. This was a nightmare to piece together as his ages on the census records with Mary Rebecca are totally wrong. However, his age at death was 77 yrs which matches with the other records. Also, his signature on his Marriage Cert to Frances Tewkesbury and Mary Selby are identical.

So as regards Eleanor -Ellen
we know that her dob is 12/12/77 from the 1939 register.

Do you have the death certif? does it have the dob on that?..sometimes it does

We know her name is Eleanor Frances too

is there any likely Eleanor Frances born 1876 Dec regis or March regis 1877 for Bermondsey area?

and is that name Lennard maybe connected to her?

Also which would be the church for that area St Olave???
if so sometimes in the Baptisms they put dob

is it worth searching the baptisms for that church for that date or around that date?

I don't have Eleanor's death cert just her probate. Date of death 27.10.1965. Will order DC.

The nearest birth regs I could find were Helena Francis Jones, St Olaves but it's Jan 1877, mmn Brooker and Ellen Jones, St Olaves J quarter 1877 mmn Smitheyman.

I couldn't find a baptism for Eleanor Jones for the right period but I couldn't for any of Mary's children. I have baptisms for both of Henry's children with Frances. Mary was catholic. Forgive my inexperience, but is there a separate search area for catholic baptisms?

I could find nothing for Eleanor Jones on GRO in the Bermondsey area.

I tried searching the surname Jones with mmn Lennard but nothing anywhere near came up. I'm not sure where to try next.

Contact the local regis office for that Helena Francis one registered in January 1877 and say you only want it if dob is
12-12-1877
or ask them if it is that dob

I have done that with local ones and they are usually helpful
or pay for it and ust the dob as the must have on it and if it is not correct they should return your money.

OK, thanks. Will try that.