Genealogy Forum UK

Hi,

I'm new to this and am stuck! I would be extremely grateful for some help as I seem to be going round in circles!

I'm looking for info for 2 of the children of Henry Jones (abt 1852) and his wife Mary nee Sullivan from Bermondsey.

The 1881 census shows the family at 20 Perseverance Street - Mary (1875), Eleanor (1877), Henry T (1881).
The 1892 census shows them at 3 King Street - Ellen and Henry (the same years of birth), Frederick (1884) and Alice (1886).

Mary died in 1892 and Henry married Frances Tewkesbury nee Wearn the same year. The 1901 census shows the family at 1 Angel Place and the children as Alice, Lily (Frances' daughter from her first marriage), Violet and Bertie (my maternal grandfather).

I have searched the GRO register and found entries for Mary, Frederick and Alice (all mmn Sullivan) and Lily, Violet and Albert (mmn Wearn). However, I can find no birth reg for Eleanor and Henry T.

I can trace Eleanor through to 1965 when she died. My mother (her niece) lived with her in London after my grandmother died but I can't prove she is Mary's daughter. Her marriage certificate to Christopher Gagg shows her father as Henry Jones, carman.

As for Henry T, I can find nothing at all.

Frederick has also disappeared after his military service but I'll leave that problem for now!

Thank you in anticipation!

Linda

Is this the marriage in 1873?
Marriages Sep 1873
Dooling Thomas St. Saviour 1d 240 Scan available - click to view
FINN Mary St.Saviour 1d 240 Scan available - click to view
JONES Henry St Saviour 1d 240 Scan available - click to view
Sullivan Mary St Saviour 1d 240

Name: Eleanor F Gagg
Death Age: 88
Birth Date: abt 1877
Registration Date: Dec 1965
Registration district: Wandsworth
Inferred County: London
Volume: 5e
Page: 557

Name: Eleanor Frances Gagg
Death: 27 Oct 1965 - London, England
Civil: 2 Dec 1965 - London, England
probate to Frederick Christopher Gagg.




Marriages Sep 1906
Gagg Christopher Southwark 1d 144
JONES Eleanor Francis Southwark 1d 144
MOYES James Southwark 1d 144
STEVENS Bertha Southwark 1d 144

Where is Eleanor born? London?
what age is she on the marriage certif?

Can anyone find her on the 1939 might have her dob on there.

JONES, MARY ELIZABETH SULLIVAN
GRO Reference: 1874 J Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 288

JONES, FREDERICK JAMES SULLIVAN
GRO Reference: 1883 J Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 289

JONES, ALICE MARGARET SULLIVAN
GRO Reference: 1885 S Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 252


but as you say can't see Eleanor to a Sullivan. nor Henry

On the 1881 they are not the same year of birth
ellen is 14
Henry is 10
so 1877 and 1881.

Is this another child?
JONES, HARRY JAMES SULLIVAN
GRO Reference: 1875 D Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 260

JONES, THOMAS SULLIVAN.
GRO Reference: 1881 J Quarter in LONDON CITY Volume 01C Page 11.

JONES, ELEANOR FRANCES Blank.
GRO Reference: 1874 J Quarter in MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 519.

Eleanor Frances Jones.
Baptism Date: 6 May 1876.
Baptism Place: St Marylebone, Westminster.
Mother: Jane Jones.

Northern Lass wrote:Name: Eleanor F Gagg
Death Age: 88
Birth Date: abt 1877
Registration Date: Dec 1965
Registration district: Wandsworth
Inferred County: London
Volume: 5e
Page: 557

Name: Eleanor Frances Gagg
Death: 27 Oct 1965 - London, England
Civil: 2 Dec 1965 - London, England
probate to Frederick Christopher Gagg.




Marriages Sep 1906
Gagg Christopher Southwark 1d 144
JONES Eleanor Francis Southwark 1d 144
MOYES James Southwark 1d 144
STEVENS Bertha Southwark 1d 144

Where is Eleanor born? London?
what age is she on the marriage certif?

Ancestry, image available,

Christopher Gagg. 31. Widower. Scaffolder. Thomas Gagg. Engineer.
Eleanor Francis Jones. 28. Spinster. Henry Jones. Carman.

Marriage Date: 30 Sep 1906.
Marriage Place: St Mary Magdalene, Southwark, Southwark.

it is hard to read Eleanors date of birth as it has writing over the top, looks like 12/12/77

Many thanks for your replies

Mary and Henry's Marriage Cert shows date 10 Aug 1873
Henry Jones, 21, bachelor, carman, father William Jones decd, engineer
Mary Sullivan, 19, spinster, father Michael Sullivan decd, greengrocer

I have a transcript of 1939 Register and just shows question marks for DOB. Joan Rebecca Jones on that register is my mother.

I had seen the reg for Harry James Sullivan and ordered a download copy which I should have in a few days. There was also one for, I believe, an Ellen Sullivan, but I also found a death entry in the same year so didn't keep the details.

I did notice on another family tree that Henry T showed as Henry Thomas but there were no sources.

I also saw the baptism record for Eleanor with mother as Jane Jones. There were 2 other children baptised at the same time living at the same address as Jane whose parents were Harry James and Olivia Henrietta Jones all living at 28 North Street. I couldn't find them on the census. I did wonder whether Eleanor and Henry T were children of another member of the Jones family but Eleanor did name Henry as her father on her marriage cert.

Above is a snippet of the 1939 register, you can see why confusing for Eleanor. I do think it says 12/12/77...
The pattern of the children seem normal, maybe they were missed off the GRO? It happens. I couldn't see christenings though, then it could come down to money or at a later date? Harry Henry can be mixed up too. Hard one and with it being Jones!

Yes, not the easiest one to start as a beginner! This wasnt the only puzzle in this family tree. My grandfather, Albert Alfred Jones (Bertie) married Nellie Gagg. My mother was from his first marriage. Nellie is the daughter of Christopher Gagg (Eleanor's husband) from his first marriage so Eleanor is my great aunt and also my step great grandmother (I think!). I'm not sure it was even legal but it is resolved!

So, should I just accept that Eleanor and Henry T are Mary's children or would you suggest that I order some more certificates to rule out different parents? Any advice would be appreciated.