John Edward GREY, Cabinet Maker, Bethnal Green late C19

[BenF]

I know John Edward GREY, was a Cabinet Maker then French Polisher in Bethnal Green late C19 and early C20. His marriage register entry (12th June 1888, St James the Great) gives age 19, occupation as Cabinet Maker, father as John GREY, Cabinet Maker. Witnesses RC PERRIN and George RIVERS. At the 1891 census, he is a "French Polisher", with address in Collingwood Street.

But, the only John Edward GREY I have found thereabouts on either 1871 or 1881 census of an appropriate age had a father "Henry GREY", mother "Margaret Henrietta GRAY" (Henry's location unclear 1881, most of the rest of the family in the workhouse).

So, what about without the middle name...

I have a John GREY on the 1871, with parents John & Martha GREY (John senior being 'Gilder').

Another family of son John, parents John & Martha - this time GRAY in Limehouse, but with John snr being a "General Dealer"

Another John GRAY of St Luke, siblings Elizabeth and Cornelius, father John GRAY, a Carman.

Then there's John GRAY, b 1868 appx to Emma & John GRAY (a labourer originally from Hertfordshire - Bishop.....). Emma, and John snr's BiL William HOVE, born in Slough "Berks".

It's not John GREY of 31 Grange St Bethnal Green, because his middle name is 'Henry', as was his father John Henry GREY, a wood turner.

How do I work out which John GREY was my John Edward GREY, the Cabinet Maker then French Polisher, and thus who his mother was?

Thanks

Ben

[SRD]

I think that gilding is a skill used in cabinet making.

[BC Wench]

This looks like your John Edward Grey from FMP

1939 National Register: 16 Boot Street, Shoreditch
Mary A Grey - Born: 25 Aug 1870 - Married - Unpaid Domestic Duties
John E Grey - Born: 7 Sept 1870 - Married - French Polisher
William Grey - Born: 24 Oct 1915 - Single - Painters Labourer

Have you seen this GRO web site where it gives the Mother's maiden name from 1837-1916, you have to register, but it doesn't cost anything

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/cert ... efault.asp

This is where I found the birth of a John Edward GRAY in the right timeframe

GRAY, JOHN EDWARD (Mother's Maiden Name) THURLOW
GRO Reference: 1870 S Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 336

Looking for a Grey/Gray & Thurlow marriage for John Edward's parents there's this

Marriage: 26 August 1869 St Matthew, Brixton, Surrey (Lambeth) (Ancestry)
John Edward Gray - 22 - Bachelor - Oilman - Brixton - John Joseph Gray - Oilman
Mary Ann Thurlow - 25 - Spinster - St Marys, Lambeth - Jonathan Thurlow - Engineer
Wit: James Crane, Barbara? Gray
All sign

1871 Census: 249 Balls Pond Road, Islington
John E Gray - Head.Mar - 23 - Oilman's Asst. - Islington, Middlesex 1848
Mary A Gray - Wife - 27 - Ipswich 1844
Edward J Gray - Son - 7mths - Lambeth, Surrey 1870

Deaths Jun 1879 (FreeBMD)
Gray John Edward 31 Lambeth 1d 218

Parents of John Edward Gray

GRAY, JOHN EDWARD HOBBS Order
GRO Reference: 1847 D Quarter in THE ISLINGTON DISTRICT Volume 03 Page 286

Marriage: 6 March 1843 St Matthew, Brixton, Surrey (Lambeth) (Ancestry)
John Joseph Gray - Full Age - Bachelor - Oilman - Brixton - William Gray - Oilman
Mary Ann Hobbs - Full Age - Spinster - Brixton - Joseph Hobbs - Gent.
Wit: Eliza Hobbs, John Plummer?

1851 Census: 9 Princes Terrace, Islington
Josh Hobbs - Head.Mar - 63 - Superannuation (?) Service - (?) Hertfords?
Eliza Hobbs - Wife - 62 - Brompton, Suffolk
Mary A Gray - Dau.Mar - 32 - Lambeth, Surrey
John Ed Gray - Grandson - 3 - Islington

1861 Census: 7 Canterbury? Ter., Lambeth
Eliza Hobbs - Head.Wid - 76 - Fundholder - Redisham, Suffolk 1785
John J(oseph) Gray - Son in law.Mar - 40 - Printer Compositor - Lambeth 1821
Mary A Gray - Dau.Mar - 44 - Wife - Lambeth 1817
John E Gray - Grandson - 14 - Scholar - Islington 1847
Mary A Gray - Granddau - 3 - Edmonton

1871 Census: 13 Millers Lane, Lambeth
Charlotte Cochrane - 56
Alice Scott - 25
Mary A Gray - Lodger.Wid - 52 - Annuitant - Lambeth
Hannah Crane - 55

1881 Census: 318 Wandsth. Road, Clapham, Wandsworth, London
Mary Ann Gray - Head.Wid - 63 - General Dealer - Lambeth, Surrey 1818
John E Gray - Grandson - 11 - Scholar - Lambeth, Surrey 1870

On the 1939 Register above John E, Mary A & William Grey there is
Emily Grey - Born: 19 Aug 95 (written above 10.8.92) - Single - Kitchen Hand
Elizabeth Hobbs - Born: 20 Oct 81 - Widow - Charwoman

[BenF]

Massive thanks, "BC Wench".
I knew the 1939 national register existed, but didn't know either that it gave DOB or that it was available already.

I also didn't know about the GRO site, and their mother's maiden name facility.

Both VERY useful.

...however, something seems wrong about the Lambeth birth - is there anything more than co-incidence of name and date to link John Edward Grey, the Cabinet Maker and French Polisher to Lambeth? I know from the marriage cert that his father John was also a Cabinet Maker. Yet if the Lambeth birth is correct, John snr was an 'Oilman', so would have needed to move from Lambeth to Islington and then to Bethnal Green and changed from being an 'Oilman', like his father, to being a Cabinet Maker (something that I have read indicates a good degree of skill - far more than a joiner, or wood turner, or...)

So, I think the key for the moment is - the final 3 lines of your post:

"On the 1939 Register above John E, Mary A & William Grey there is
Emily Grey - Born: 19 Aug 95 (written above 10.8.92) - Single - Kitchen Hand
Elizabeth Hobbs - Born: 20 Oct 81 - Widow - Charwoman"

Can I check - do you know where they were registered in 1939? If it is Boot St, then the Hobbs connection looks very persuasive, and I can (in time) further check by looking at John Edward jnr's birth RECORD to check he was born on the right day in Lambeth.

Many, many thanks, Ben

[grangers14]

Emily Grey and Elizabeth Hobbs were at the same address under another schedule also along with under another schedule,

Annie Johnson, 23 Sept 12, Unpaid domestic duties
Robert W, Johnson, 8 May 11, Builders labourer
Irene Johnson, 13 Nov, 34, school

Annie Grey, Robert W Johnson Marriage Mar 1933 Shoreditch 1c 91

[BC Wench]

Firstly, regarding the 1939 Register for Emily Grey. Her date of birth is given as 19 Aug 95, written above is 10.8.94 not 10.8.92 as I first said - sorry. It looks as though Emily is the daughter of your John Edward born 1870.

The Henry & Margaret Henrietta Grey and John & Martha Grey I believe are 2 brothers, which I have all the info on.

I have sent you a p.m.

[BenF]

Thanks to both of you. At the moment my working assumption is that Elizabeth Hobbs at Boot St was married as follows

Sep quarter 1915

Brackell Eliza Hobbs Shoreditch 1c 260
Hobbs James H Brackell Shoreditch 1c 260

But we shall see, in due course.

Ben

[grangers14]

9th August 1915. St Peters, Hoxton Square Shoreditch.
James Henry Hobbs, 34, W, Carman, 6 residence Hoxton Market, William Hobbs (deceased) Butcher
Eliza Brackell, 30, S, 6 residence Hoxton Market, George Brackell, Chair Maker
Banns
Both signed
Witnesses, x of Mary Ann Grey, Edith May Browne

[BenF]

For all of the wonderful help from BC Wench, I have been a bit uneasy about the GRAY/THURLOW birth.

I now suspect the relevant birth was registered John Edward GRAY Dec q in Bethnal Green, mother nee CARTER.

Checking out now, if the 1939 register Dob is correct, it could have been registered Dec q, since parents had 6 weeks to register (see http://www.thosedixons.net/certificates ... .html#COL8)

This fits with a marriage Mar q Bethnal Green between Martha CARTER and John GREY, so the Father's first name is correct (sine qua non), and we don't have the disadvantage of knowing John GREY snr was dead at the marriage of John Edward, but without "deceased" on the marriage cert, and if my earlier research is to be believed, John GREY snr was a "gilder", which less of a leap to "french polisher" than "oilman" would have been.

Many thanks, BC Wench - I couldn't have figured out this possibility without the dob from the 1939, that you helped with, nor with the GRO search that you put me onto.

[BC Wench]

Hello Ben,

This is what I had already found on John Grey & Martha Carter:-

Marriage: 10 January 1870 St Peter, Bethnal Green
John Grey, Full, B, Gilder, 321 Wellington Row, Henry Grey, Gilder
Martha Carter, Minor, S, 321 Wellington Row, Thomas Carter, Gilder
Wit: M Gaisford?, M.A. Gaisford?
All sign

1871 Census: 32 Wimbolt Street, Hackney Road, Bethnal Green
John Grey, Head.Mar, 27, Gilder, Shoreditch
Martha Grey, Wife, 21, Clerkenwell
John Grey, Son, 5mths, Bethnal Green

I believe this John Grey to be this one as he doesn't appear to be on any other censuses:-

GRAY, JOHN EDWARD Mother's Maiden Name CARTER
GRO Reference: 1870 D Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 214

GREY, JOHN EDWARD 10 (Age is wrong should be 0yrs according to FreeBMD below)
GRO Reference: 1871 S Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 209

Deaths Sep 1871 (FreeBMD)
Grey John Edward 0 Bethnal Green 1c 209

1881 Census: 385 Hackney Road, Bethnal Green
John Grey, Head.Mar, 36, Gilder, Shoreditch
Martha Grey, Wife, 31, Clerkenwell
Alexander John Grey, Son, 9mths, Bethnal Green
Emily Grey, Niece, 18, Scholar, Bethnal Green (Dau of Henry & Henrietta Margaret (Cooling) Grey)
Clementine Grey, Niece, 8, Scholar, Bethnal Green (Dau of Henry & Henrietta Margaret (Cooling) Grey)
Elizabeth Attwell, Adopted.UM, 20, Bethnal Green
Mary Jane Middleton, Dom.Serv, 24, Domestic Servant, Bethnal Green

WILL: John Grey. 25 June 1883
Administration of the Personal Estate of John Grey late of 385 Hackney-road in the County of Middlesex who died 17 May 1883 at the "Bucks Head" Tavern Chilton-street Bethnal Green in the said County was granted at the principal Registry to Martha Grey of 385 Hackney-road Widow the Relict. Personal Estate £1,987 5s. Re-sworn January 1884 £2,420 4s. 9d.

Martha (Carter) Grey then goes on to marry Frederick Gardner

Marriage: 25 October, 1886 Christ Church, Hackney
Frederick Gardner, 28, Bachelor, Seaman?, 5 Southboro' Rd, S. Hackney, William Gardner, Looking Glass Manufacturer
Martha Grey, 30, Widow, 5 Southboro' Rd, S. Hackney, Thomas Carter, Looking Glass Manufacturer
Wit: Henry Beeron?, Matilda Howlett
All sign

1891 Census: 57 Banhill Row, Finsbury
Frederick Gardiner, Head.Mar, 39, Coffee House Keeper, St Lukes
Martha Gardiner, Wife, 39, Clerkenwell
John A Gardiner(GREY), Son, 11, Scholar, Bethnal Green (should be stepson)
Maud F Gardiner(GREY), Dau, 9, Scholar, Bethnal Green (should be stepdau)
Amelia Grey, Aunt.Mar, 59, Bishopsgate
Archibald Gardner, Son, 1mth, St Lukes, London
+ 3 Servants

1901 Census: 112 Angel Road, Edmonton, Middlesex
Frederick Gardner, Head.Mar, 40, Coffee House Proprietor, St Lukes, London
Martha Gardner, Wife, 49, Clerkenwell
Archibald Gardner, Son, 10, St Lukes, London
John Grey, Step Son, 20, Stick Maker, Hackney
Maud Grey, Step Dau, 18, Commercial Clerk, Hackney

Baptisms for children of John & Martha (Carter) Grey

Baptism: 25 July 1880 St Peter, Bethnal Green, Middlesex (Tower Hamlets)
John Alexander (Born: 27 June 1880) - Parents: John & Martha Grey - 385 Hackney Road - Father's occ: Looking Glass Manufacturer

Baptism: 2 July 1882 St Peter, Bethnal Green, Middlesex (Tower Hamlets)
Maud Florence (Born 12 June 1882) - Parents: John & Martha Grey - 385 Hackney Road - Father's occ: Looking Glass Manufacturer

I think you need to get the birth certificate for John Edward Grey who appears on the 1939 Register, to be certain.

[BenF]

Wow, BC Wench.

Once again you amaze me!

Thank heavens that is what you had already found: I'm getting embarrassed how much you are helping me/my family.

It really does look like I will have to get birth certs for J.E.G. The question is, which do I pay £ for first? I like to get things as worked out as i can.

But at the moment working out who the most likely candidate is, is just adding to confusion.

I spotted the GRAY/CARTER birth after wondering if the dob on the 1939 register might have been wrong. I've certainly come across other relatives where year of birth 'slipped', as the couple tried to disguise that she was older than he was (and by how much).

...and searching for "John GR?Y" births on GRO gives me one with a mother maiden name FOWLER mar q 1870, Bethnal Green. But no obvious GR?Y/FOWLER marriage to relate it to.

Then there are Johns: GRAY/STOKES, b Decq 1871, Stepney, GRAY/HAMBLETON, b Marq 1872, Shoreditch
GREY/GENNINGS, b Decq 1873, Hackney

aaagh!

[gardener]

Have you got any further with this?

1881 Census: 385 Hackney Road, Bethnal Green
John Grey, Head.Mar, 36, Gilder, Shoreditch
Martha Grey, Wife, 31, Clerkenwell
Alexander John Grey, Son, 9mths, Bethnal Green
Emily Grey, Niece, 18, Scholar, Bethnal Green (Dau of Henry & Henrietta Margaret (Cooling) Grey)
Clementine Grey, Niece, 8, Scholar, Bethnal Green (Dau of Henry & Henrietta Margaret (Cooling) Grey)
Elizabeth Attwell, Adopted.UM, 20, Bethnal Green
Mary Jane Middleton, Dom.Serv, 24, Domestic Servant, Bethnal Green

GREY, CLEMENTINA COOLING
GRO Reference: 1873 J Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 189

she had a brother

GREY, JOHN EDWARD COOLING
GRO Reference: 1870 M Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 240

and I think this is him in 1881

Bethnal Green Workhouse 2
Henrietta Grey mar 37 Shoreditch
John Grey 11 Bethnal Green
Elzbth. Grey 4

and in 1871
Hackney Road, Bethnal Green
Henry Grey 29 carver and gilder Shoreditch
Margaret Henrietta Grey 27 Hoxton?
Emily Henrietta Grey 8 Bethnal green
John Edward Grey 1 Bethnal Green


There is a tempting Henry Grey in prison in 1881 - he is a french polisher but his age is wrong (27) and quite clearly written. But if John Edward ended in the workhouse, perhaps he blamed his father and used his uncle's name on his marriage certificate?

Clementine gave her father's name as Henry Grey, gilder when she married.
Emily too said Henry Grey, carver and Gilder.

So it is not a great fit, except for the name but useful perhaps in some way.

[BenF]

Thanks, gardener.

No, no further for the time being. I have been focussing on other lines, and making some quick progress - not just parent, but grandparent, and on one line, even a great-grandparent of the earliest relative in that line have been added over the last couple of day. Mind you, it's not all plain sailing: I am currently looking at a line where apparently a father was dead 19 years before he was named as the father (not 'deceased', and with an occupation of 'bricklayer') on my ancestor's marriage register... .

Attention elsewhere doesn't mean I have lost interest in John Edward GREY - far from it - the further 'behind' this line gets, the more I want to make a breakthrough. But at the same time, I am determined to work through the raw material I have already got before paying to progress JEG.

If I don't get any more relevant info, it's a case of trying to work out which of the options to plump for first. All of them are unsatisfactory in (at least) one way or another at the moment. I hadn't thouoght of the possibility of my JEG lieing at marriage - but I know of other ancestors who have, and had been considering the possibility of bits of the record not being accurate. The particular possibility you suggest of which lie is an interesting one. The 'best fit' parents appear to be John and Martha nee CARTER, apart from the liklihood that their JEG died in 1871. Failing that, the best fit appears to be his cousin, ...apart from his dad being a 'Henry'. G

But still to investigate further are John Edward GRAY b dec q 1873 St Saviour Surrey GRAY/BREMES
and John Edward GRAY b sep q 1874 St Panc GRAY/CROMMELIN,
and of course BC Wench's apparent preferred option of GRAY/THURLOW in Lambeth (dec q 1870) - if I can find out anything more about any of them.

[BenF]

Well, I think I have ruled out John Edward GRAY b sep q 1874 St Panc GRAY/CROMMELIN - parents seem to be Samuel Octavius Gray and Anne Charlotte Isabella Crommelin

Ben

[BC Wench]

I also wondered if Henry was the father of JEG, but now not so sure because of finding these school records.

Name: John Grey - Address: 11 Virginia Row - Previous School: Mount School - Time in other Schools: 6mths
Age: 7
Birth Date: 17 Mar 1869
School: Virginia Road School
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Admission Date: 11 Sep 1876
Parent: Henry Grey
Notes: Virginia Road School (0266) opened in 1875. Renamed Virginia School in 1951

Okay, the birth year is out, but the same birth quarter?

GREY, JOHN EDWARD COOLING Order
GRO Reference: 1870 M Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 240

Here is Clementina at same address

School Admissions
Name: Clementina Grey - Address 11 Virginia Row
Age: 4
Birth Date: 3 Mar 1873
School: Virginia Road School
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Admission Date: 16 Apr 1877
Parent: Henry Grey
Notes: Virginia Road School (0266) opened in 1875. Renamed Virginia School in 1951
Reference Number: LCC/EO/DIV05/VIR/AD/006