Glamorganshire/South Wales detectives needed

[MattFletcher]

Hi all, I am trying to find birth details of my great-great-grandmother Margaret Trew (nee Jones). Sorry for the length of the post but I wanted to give as much info as possible.

In 1862 she married Thomas Trew in St. Athan and from hereon her life is well documented in census records - although the ages are a little inconsistent. The marriage record gives her age as 21 (30 June 1862) and a likely correct census entry of April 1861 lists her as 19. Those dates would be consistent with a birth in April-June 1841 but in later censuses her age is ?8 implying April 1842-March 1843.

More troublesome is her stated birthplace (all while living in Bridgend): Pontypridd (1861), Newbridge (1871), Lantwit Varder (1881), Llantwit Major (1891), Llantwit Vardre (1901) and Coychurch Higher, Bridgend (1911).

The last one I can't explain and is just wrong or based on some confusion. The others are more consistent than they appear. Pontypridd is just 'New Bridge' in Welsh so I believe the Newbridge of 1871 is just Pontypridd rather than the small village of the same name. I think Llantwit Major is a mistake for Llantwit Vardre/Fardre. Margaret and her husband were illiterate (their marriage record has Xs instead of signatures!) so the details were filled out by an enumerator. I think she simply gave her place of birth as Llantwit and the 1891 enumerator expanded it to the wrong one. Llantwit Fardre is a large village about 4 miles south of Pontypridd.

So, to summarise, I believe she was probably born in Llantwit Fardre/Vardre, near Pontypridd, 1840-1843. She must be in the 1851 census and there's some chance she'd been born in time for the 1841 census too as it was in June. The other key piece of information I have from the marriage record is that her father was Thomas Jones, a Labourer.

Now I'm stuck. I can't confidently find her in either the 1841 or 1851 census (needle in a haystack) or find a birth/baptism record. I started by looking for births in Pontypridd, but I then discovered that Pontypridd as a registration district was only created in 1863 when it took villages (including Llantwitfardre) from the Cardiff and Merthyr Tydfil districts http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/dist ... pridd.html. So it seems I should be looking for the birth record in Cardiff but when I search (FreeBMD/findmypast/familysearch) for Cardiff births for the period there are hardly any at all. Putting in Glamorganshire gives reams and reams of Neath and Merthyr Tydfil births but virtually none as Cardiff. So now I'm baffled. Can anyone explain what I'm doing wrong, or help in searching for a Llantwit Fardre birth around 1840?

Given her illiteracy I am tending away from an urban upbringing. Would it really be possible to grow up in Merthyr Tydfil in the 1840/50s and be unable to write your own name? I've also rejected some of the more obviously prosperous Thomas Joneses (from censuses) as it seems unlikely they'd have an illiterate daughter or be classed as Labourer. I'd really like to locate the birth record though.

Thanks for reading, any suggestions appreciated, Matt.

[peterd]

what does marriage cert say in full witness occupations address etc ?

[MattFletcher]

Nothing of much interest. It's extremely short. I can't even read the witnesses names (Evan ????es and ???tt Edwards) but no professions are given. But it's a good suggestion - there's a possibility they were shipped in from the village. I'll try to locate them this evening and post an image of their names if I'm stuck. It's in the "Established" (I presume Church of Wales?) Parish Church of St. Athan. No addresses at all except for the bride and groom who are both reported to be living in St. Athan. As a baby appeared a few months later it might not have been a particularly celebratory affair

[peterd]

Llantwit Major is near st Athans isnt it ? can you post the census info please

[rockyfowler]

30 Jun 1862 St Tathan St Athan
Thomas TREW 25 B Labourer St Athan Father James Trew Labourer
Margaret JONES 21 S Servant St Athan Father Thomas Jones Labourer
After Banns The Marks of Both
Wit; Evan Jones ? / Harriott? Edwards

[rockyfowler]

1861
Aberthin Mill, Castleton, St Athan, Bridgend, Glamorganshire, Wales

William Dees Head Married Male 38 1823 Miller Master Employing 3 Men Glamorgan, Wales
Agnes Dees Wife Married Female 32 1829 - Gileston, Glamorgan, Wales
John Dees Son - Male 10 1851 - Glamorgan, Wales
Mary A Dees Daughter - Female 7 1854 Scholar Glamorgan, Wales
Richard Dees Son - Male 4 1857 - Glamorgan, Wales
Agnes Dees Daughter - Female 0 1861 - Glamorgan, Wales
Margaret Jones Servant Unmarried Female 19 1842 House Servant Glamorgan, Wales
Thomas Edward Workman Unmarried Male 26 1835 Miller Glamorgan, Wales
James ... Servant Widower Male 39 1822 Carter Ireland


1851
Y Garn, Cwmdu Llangynwyd, Bridgend, Glamorganshire, Wales

Mary Jones Head Married Female 34 1817 The Wife Of Labourer Llangadog, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Mary Jones Daughter - Female 14 1837 - Llangadog, Carmarthenshire, Wales
David Jones Son - Male 12 1839 - Glamorgan, Wales
Margaret Jones Daughter - Female 10 1841 - Glamorgan, Wales
Elizabeth Jones Daughter - Female 7 1844 - Tythegston, Glamorgan, Wales
William Jones Son - Male 2 1849 - Tythegston, Glamorgan, Wales

[peterd]

Margaret Jones Servant Unmarried Female 19 1842 House Servant Glamorgan, Wales
Thomas Edward Workman Unmarried Male 26 1835 Miller Glamorgan, Wales
James ... Servant Widower Male 39 1822 Carter Ireland

could this thomas edwards be related to poss witness ?

[peterd]

poss david


Name: David Jones
Birth Date: 19 Feb 1839
Baptism Date: 14 Apr 1839
Baptism Place: Tabor Calvinistic Methodist,Llangwyryfon,Cardigan,Wales
Father: Thomas Jones
Mother: Mary

[MattFletcher]

While preparing this monster post I see rockyfowler has correctly identified the marriage and Margaret as a servant in 1861.

Here are all the links to the census details:

"England and Wales Census, 1911," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWXD-6V8 : accessed 16 November 2015), Margaret Trew, Newcastle Higher, Aberkenfig, Glamorganshire, Wales; from "1911 England and Wales census," database and images, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : n.d.); citing PRO RG 14, The National Archives of the UK, Kew, Surrey.

Trew1911.PNG (189.88 KiB) Viewed 2590 times

(This birthplace is in Bridgend and flat out wrong IMO)

"England and Wales Census, 1901," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSM9-Z1Q : accessed 16 November 2015), Margaret Trew in household of Thomas Trew, Newcastle Higher, Glamorganshire, Wales; from "1901 England, Scotland and Wales census," database and images, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : n.d.); citing Bridgend subdistrict, PRO RG 13, The National Archives, Kew, Surrey.

Trew1901.PNG (113.63 KiB) Viewed 2590 times

(Birthplace Glamorgan, Llantwit Vadre)

"England and Wales Census, 1891," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:HMG6-M2M : accessed 16 November 2015), Margaret Trew in household of Thomas Trew, Llandough, Glamorganshire, Wales; from "1891 England, Scotland and Wales census," database and images, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : n.d.); citing PRO RG 12, Glamorganshire county, subdistrict, The National Archives of the UK, Kew, Surrey.

Trew1891.PNG (112.29 KiB) Viewed 2590 times

(Birthplace Glamorgan, Llantwit Major - I believe wrongly expanded from Llantwit by an enumerator)

[cont]

[MattFletcher]

"England and Wales Census, 1881," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKXY-XHJ2 : accessed 16 November 2015), Margaret Trew in household of Thomas Trew, Llandough Near Cowbridge, Glamorganshire, Wales; from "1881 England, Scotland and Wales census," database and images, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : n.d.); citing p. 12, Piece/Folio 5330/19, The National Archives, Kew, Surrey; FHL microfilm 101,775,464.

Trew1881.PNG (109.7 KiB) Viewed 2590 times

(Birthplace Glamorgan, Llantwit Varder(?))

"England and Wales Census, 1871", database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KD6P-6Q7 : accessed 16 November 2015), Margaret True in entry for Thomas True, 1871.

Trew1871.PNG (65.57 KiB) Viewed 2590 times

(Birthplace Newbridge - Ponty pridd just means 'new bridge'. Margaret spoke Welsh and English and I think this is also Pontypridd)

"England and Wales Census, 1861," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MWMZ-DWV : accessed 16 November 2015), Margaret Jones, St Athan, Glamorganshire, Wales; from "1861 England, Scotland and Wales census," database and images, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : n.d.); citing PRO RG 9, The National Archives, Kew, Surrey.

Jones1861.PNG (123.73 KiB) Viewed 2590 times

(Birthplace Pontypridd)

Llantwit Fardre/Varder or even Llanwitfardre is a small parish about 4 miles from the large village of Pontypridd. Llantwit Major is on the other side of Bridgend which is where the confusion arose I think. A Bridgend enumerator would think of Llantwit Major if presented with Llantwit.

[MattFletcher]

"Wales, Glamorganshire, Parish Registers, 1538-1912," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCBQ-1TQ : accessed 16 November 2015), Thomas Trew and Margaret Jones, 30 Jun 1862, Marriage; from "Parish Records Collection 1538-2005," database and images, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : 2012); citing St Athan, Glamorganshire, Wales, The National Archives, Kew, Surrey.

The marriage record has been poorly transcribed. The age 25 is for the groom. Margaret's age is given as 21.

Witnesses to their marriage:

Witnesses1862.PNG (76.47 KiB) Viewed 2590 times

Maybe Harriett?

[MattFletcher]

The 1851 record for Margaret isn't convincing. Her birthplace is given as Llangadog, Carmarthenshire which is completely different from all recorded birthplaces (Pontypridd, Newbridge, Llantwit Farder/Vardre, Llantwit Major). I kind of assumed her father Thomas was alive at the time of her marriage also - only because there's no indication he's deceased on the record. Of course that may be wrong. My guess would be that Margaret came to Bridgend as a teenager a few years before 1861 but won't be found under Bridgend in the 1851 census but 'back home' - wherever precisely that was.

To peterd matching on common names is pointless in South Wales - every other person is called David Jones or Edwards. Also this was in the "Established Church" so anyone belonging to a Calvinist chapel or Methodist tabernacle isn't going to be a witness.

I discovered this record which is good in every way except one ... her age of 7.
Ponty Pridd, Llantwit Vaidre, Cardiff, Glamorganshire
Thomas Jones Head Married Male 45 1806 Inn Keeper Land Agent And Farmer Of 40 Acres
Employ On 2 Ag Lab Glamorgan, Wales
Mary Jones Wife Married Female 37 1814 - Nantgarw, Glamorgan, Wales
David Jones Son - Male 14 1837 - Pontypridd, Glamorgan, Wales
Catherine Jones Daughter Female 19 1832 Scholar Pontypridd, Glamorgan, Wales
Margaret Jones Daughter Female 7 1844 Scholar

I'm actually leaning towards this being her ... birthplace correct ... father's name right ... but 7 .. gah. 7 is just not compatible with the other data. I've checked the image, it is definitely 7. There's also the big question of how a relatively prosperous farmer and innkeeper can raise a daughter who has to sign her name with an X, especially when an older daughter is still a scholar aged 19 (really?)

Edit: No, this isn't her. She's consistenly aged 17 and still stuck at home in 1861.

[MattFletcher]

I think I've finally located Margaret in the 1851 census
Tydraw, Lantwitvardre, Cardiff, Glamorganshire, Wales
Thomas Jones Head Married Male 31 1820 Agricultural Labourer
Mary Jones Wife Married Female 29 1822
Margaret Jones Daughter - Female 8 1843 Scholar
I can only find this via FindMyPast. For some reason familysearch isn't letting me refine down to it.

The age of 8 is consistent with later censuses, father Thomas a labourer, but here's the clincher: on the digitized image
the birthplace is given as "Langrallo" - the same as her mother. And I've now discovered that Llangrallo is the Welsh
for Coychurch - exactly as given on the 1911 census and which I dismissed as wrong

It seems odd to rediscover your birthplace aged 68 but I suppose she just gave the place where she grew up: the small
village of Llantwit (Vardre) or Pontypridd (Newbridge) the nearest larger settlement. It would also explain why she
relocated to Bridgend as a teenager - her mother obviously had family connections there. It's not impossible her
birthday was very early in April so on 30 March 1851 she was still 8 but on 7 April 1861 she was 19. It's a nice
theory but it still doesn't explain her marriage record which says 21 (for June 1862).

I still don't have birth record, or parents marriage though.

[MattFletcher]

I'm aware this thread has now become more of blog documenting my discoveries and don't object to it being closed. There were only two possible Margaret Joneses registered in Bridgend who could have been 8 for the 1851 census. Unfortunately they were both registered in the same quarter and there's no way to differentiate them with the GRO data. I've just ordered birth certificates for both and am fairly hopeful that one of them will have the right parents.

I'm now aware that parental consent was technically required for getting married under 21 and that a blind eye was often turned. With this in mind I now think her marriage age of 21 was simply a falsification. She would've been nearly 20 (and pregnant) so I doubt the church would have been too diligent in checking.