UK & Australia Probate search - searching for relatives

[martindale]

Hi

I'm a newbie to genealogy but having my interest piqued by a current situation in my wife's family.

About 2 years ago my wife's uncle died in Australia. He was in his eighties so not unexpected.

As far as anybody knows he was a lifelong bachelor with no known relatinships and no known children. He died of Alzheimer's after a couple of years in care.

He left no will and a modest estate - cash savings of about £30,000.

The Australian Trustee and Guardianship dept have been appointed as administrators of the estate (about 18 months ago) and have set about tracking down beneficiaries.

Our understanding of Australian intestacy law is (as he is childless as far as we know) the estate is divided between his siblings (6 in total - 2 deceased) and in the case of the dead siblings - their children inherit.

The Australians have been provided with birth, marriage and death certs of the uncle's parents and siblings (and children) and so on - all certified by solicitors in the UK.

About 3 months ago we chased up the Trustee and Guardianship dept and they said they were carrying out genealogical investigations in the UK to establish the family tree - which is fine and expected.

However, they said they were now looking at establishing that there were no other (unknown) living siblings or children of siblings in the UK.

This fairly baffled us as - to our knowledge there are no other living relatives in the UK - and if that is the case, we can't understand how the genealogist can set about proving a negative - that is, the Australians can't finalise the administration of the uncle's estate until they are happy there are no other relatives likely to come forward and make a claim on the estate - but how can they prove there are no further relatives? How can one prove something doesn't exist...

So the genealogist seemingly has to verify that there are no unknown siblings or sibling's children - is that even possible to prove?

The family names involved are very common - Cooper and White - how would they ever prove that the uncle's mother didn't have another illigitimate child or some other sibling had a secret child?

Perhaps we're misunderstanding the nature of the genealogical research involved in this - but if anybody out there has any experience of this situation - particularly how long it will take - that would be of great help.

The Australians fairly much said it takes as long as it takes - but it sounds like it could take years - not just the the year or so already.

[gardener]

Hi

That sounds like an international mess!

This site is fairly easy to understand http://www.access-legal.co.uk/services/ ... l-4696.htm
I think that a Grant of Letters of Administration would have to be applied for in England. After that there seems to be only 6 months for people to step up and claim. I'm not sure about the process but I imagine it involves an advert in some legal magazine. Some companies make money by finding heirs and getting a cut of the inheritance. In your case there is not much money (and no unknown heirs probably) so it should all roll on. I think that the onus is on people to claim rather than proving that people don't exist!

I think that you should write a formal letter requesting an outline of the plan of action and the expected timescale (if you have not already done that).
And please not that Scotland has its own system so if there is any reason to look there things could be trickier.

Maybe someone else on here will give you better advice good luck with it all!

[martindale]

Thanks for the information.

As the uncle died in Australia and lived there most of his adult life and all his finances - savings and debts - were there, the family appointed Administrators in New South Wales.

The family were contacted after his death by this government body: http://www.tag.nsw.gov.au/estate-admin-landing.html

As the estate was not huge, and rather than instruct solicitors here at our cost for a pay-off that might never happen (if he turned out to have married secretly for instance) the family took up the offer from the New South Wales State Guardianship office to administer the estate - for a percentage of the total.

But of course, it then happens to their method and pace.

We expected it to take a year at least anyway - it just seemed a bit daft to consult genealogists to prove family members didn't exist - not that they did exist!

I expect they will reach a point where they feel they have done enough and advise the Australian Administrators to take out Probate Insurance to cover the liklihood of any missing beneficiaries coming forward in the future - and at that point they may pay out.

Most of the uncle's siblings are in their late 80s too - so times is a bit of an issue - if they're going to get any use out of their inheritance.

It would be fascinating to hear from anyone who has gone through this process or any genealogists who have done this kind of research.

[martindale]

PS - yes - the Administrators did supply a plan of action but we are drifting beyond that by some months now ... with no indication of an end in sight.

[grangers14]

I am going to move this over to general section.
Jo

[grangers14]

Interesting...
I think the only way they could prove is if names and signatures are on any records...

My mums side of the family were contacted by people acting on a death of a relative who died intestate. They traced the family back.
I was told by another member of the family, only became friends doing genealogy to find we were related

The family tree that had been looked into was WRONG, they didn't have my grandfather but another George
So they were not as thorough as you would expect
So I would say make sure you check findings.
They did uncover an illegitimate child however and all inheritance went there. Sadly, the person who had lived with her and helped care for her got nothing

However I also have helped people uncover history of a parent who never spoke about their past lives to find they did actually have living half siblings living the other side of the world! Thankfully that worked out well

I would say keep an open mind and thoroughly check anything that comes up.
Jo

[martindale]

Thanks for the info - and thanks for moving the thread - I wasn't sure where to post really to get the best chance of replies.

To be fair to the Australian Administrators - it's not that we think they are necessarily doing anything wrong in this process - it's just it seemed to be taking belt and braces certainty to a very high level.

The family all understand that the Administrators have to cover themselves against the potential for any future claims against the estate before they can make any payments to the already known 'likely' beneficiaries.

Having done a bit of internet research on the probate/intestacy side of things, I've discovered it's fairly common for Administrators to take out insurance policies to cover themselves against the possibility of future claims against 'paid-out' estates BUT that in order for an insurance company to issue such a policy, the Administrators have to have undertaken pretty much exhaustive research into the family tree - enough to satisfy the insurers that there are virtually no stones left unturned.

The likely beneficiaries that we know of in the UK are so elderly as to have no genuine care about any payout - it's not going to change the remainder of any of their lives but I suppose they would like the resolution of finalising their brother's affairs before they have to finalise their own affairs!!!

I don't think any of them would particularly mind if they got nothing financial out of it - but unfortunately it's created an 'anxiety' for them - when they can least do anything about it.

I suppose all we can do is keep in touch with the Administrators and emphasize the 'time is of the essence' aspect of resolving the affairs of octogenarians/nonagenarians.

[gardener]

So, under Australian law is there no time limit involved? I wondered if in a cross-border situation they continue to use Australian processes or if they would switch to the country of application. That was why I wondered if they would have to proceed by getting probate/equivalent granted in England. That would then mean only a 6 month wait from that date.

Interesting though. If you want any family history info checking then I'm sure people on here will help.

[martindale]

Not sure if there is a maximum time limit - in the sense that the Administrators have to conclude affairs before a certain time limit has passed.

They say that the absolute minimum for any estate is 6 months simply because the law dictates the executors who distribute funds before this time has passed do so at their own risk.

Most estates take 9-12 months - but I would guess that means 'most' in the sense of not intestate.

Throw in intestacy and beneficiaries in UK instead of Australia and it all gets a bit guesswork. It seemingly can take a very long time:

"If there are difficulties locating beneficiaries, challenges to the Will or the estate involves setting up trusts for minors or life interests, the duties of the executor may take several years. " http://www.tag.nsw.gov.au/executor-faqs.html

It is interesting but perplexing/anxiety inducing because we've spoken to most of the 80 year olds involved and any suggestion that there might be any illigitimate family members or unknown offspring from their brother tends to be received as though it's a personal insult - but hey ho! We'll keep ploughing on!

[gardener]

Plenty of time to read Bleak House then