Adoption and killed in action

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Re: Adoption and killed in action

Postby peterd » Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:29 am

poss marriage


Marriages Dec 1944
FLEMING Kevin P Vincent Camberwell 1d 996

there is a poss of at least one child poss still alive but weather she would know anything ?
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Re: Adoption and killed in action

Postby Melon1 » Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:02 pm

Anything is worth a shot!
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Re: Adoption and killed in action

Postby gardener » Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:43 pm

Melon1 wrote:
. Joseph was in one of two RAF squadrons and was presumed killed in action but I don't know how to distinguish which man he was and I cannot find any information on Joyce at all and as for making the connection between the two people, that is another mystery!

Could anyone give me any advice on what to do.

Many Thanks
Helen.


Hi
How good is the "presumed killed" information?
One of the two options appears to have been buried in France - wouldn't that rule him out?

http://www.inmemories.com/Cemeteries/pontaudemer.htm

(Note to everyone - there is a Walsall boy there Maurice Jones, seems to have been a bit unlucky)
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Re: Adoption and killed in action

Postby peterd » Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:47 pm

gardener wrote:
Melon1 wrote:
. Joseph was in one of two RAF squadrons and was presumed killed in action but I don't know how to distinguish which man he was and I cannot find any information on Joyce at all and as for making the connection between the two people, that is another mystery!

Could anyone give me any advice on what to do.

Many Thanks
Helen.


Hi
How good is the "presumed killed" information?
One of the two options appears to have been buried in France - wouldn't that rule him out?

http://www.inmemories.com/Cemeteries/pontaudemer.htm

(Note to everyone - there is a Walsall boy there Maurice Jones, seems to have been a bit unlucky)


but here mother would of been born november 1942 same time as he was killed so would not presumed dead be correct if he wasnt found and buried till later ?


need to find out poss when posted to france ?
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Re: Adoption and killed in action

Postby gardener » Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:05 pm

peterd wrote:two poss if killed in action ?

FLEMING, JOSEPH

Rank:Flight Sergeant
Service No:936192
Date of Death:09/06/1942
Age:22
Regiment/Service:Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 405 Sqdn.
Panel ReferencePanel 74.
MemorialRUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL

Additional Information:

Son of John and Catherine Fleming, of Hanley, Staffordshire.


and

FLEMING, JOSEPH CHARLES FREDERICK

Rank:Sergeant
Trade:Air Gnr.
Service No:1891783
Date of Death:12/11/1943
Regiment/Service:Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 158 Sqdn.
Grave Reference Row C. Joint grave 23-24.Cemetery PONT-AUDEMER COMMUNAL CEMETERY

Additional Information:


this is all guess work as little to go on ?


but here mother would of been born november 1942 same time as he was killed so would not presumed dead be correct if he wasnt found and buried till later ?


If the baby's birth certificate named the father and said presumed killed then I would rule out the one who died a year later and was buried in France - unless he was missing believed dead, reappeared, flew some more and finally died in November 1943.
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Re: Adoption and killed in action

Postby Melon1 » Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:42 pm

He wasn't named on the birth cert but he was named on the adoption order. I presumed this was because father don't legally have to be named on birth certs but do for adoption?
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Re: Adoption and killed in action

Postby gardener » Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:59 pm

OK, so did it just name him or did it say anything about his being dead/presumed dead? I think it might be important to know what the information was, if you have it.
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Re: Adoption and killed in action

Postby Melon1 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:54 am

The adoption order says Joseph Fleming, presumed killed in action.
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Re: Adoption and killed in action

Postby gardener » Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:51 pm

Then I would focus on this one

FLEMING, JOSEPH

Rank:Flight Sergeant
Service No:936192
Date of Death:09/06/1942
Age:22
Regiment/Service:Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 405 Sqdn.
Panel ReferencePanel 74.
MemorialRUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL

If the baby was adopted in January 1943 and the father presumed killed in action mid-1942 then that looks fine to me.
The other man did not die until later in 1943, according to the online records. Also, he has a bunch of additional names which are not included on the adoption certificate.

How about trying to find more about the mother, Joyce? And also use the named parents for Joseph and see if the young people might have been in the same place as each other?
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Re: Adoption and killed in action

Postby grangers14 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:28 pm

I know I added a possible Joyce from Norfolk but she would be 10 years older.
Theres a birth here ??
Joyce M Appleton Jul-Aug-Sep 1923 West Bromwich Staffordshire
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Re: Adoption and killed in action

Postby mallosa » Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:10 pm

grangers14 wrote:I know I added a possible Joyce from Norfolk but she would be 10 years older.
Theres a birth here ??
Joyce M Appleton Jul-Aug-Sep 1923 West Bromwich Staffordshire


:?

from FreeBMD...

Births Sep 1923
Appleton Joyce M Vickers W.Bromwich 6b 1352
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Re: Adoption and killed in action

Postby Melon1 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:27 pm

That's a big help on the father's side, now we need to look into the elusive Joyce and how they came to meet and why was my mother born in Norfolk when it seems neither parent was from here?
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Re: Adoption and killed in action

Postby mallosa » Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:57 pm

I haven't got a clue if this helps but here goes....

Marriages Jun 1920
Appleton Edward Vickers W.Bromwich 6b 2103
Corfield Arthur B Heath W. Bromwich 6b 2103
Heath Sarah Corfield W.Bromwich 6b 2103
Vickers Nellie Appleton W. Bromwich 6b 2103
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Re: Adoption and killed in action

Postby gardener » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:27 pm

Not sure how helpful this is... I made a list of the men remembered at Runymede and extracted the names of the ones who died on 9/6/1942 and were in 405 squadron.

PLATT, WILLIAM LLOYD Warrant Officer Class II R/69669 09/06/1942 23 Royal Canadian Air Force Canadian Panel 102. RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL
MORRIS, DAVID GORDON Pilot Officer J/15342 09/06/1942 24 Royal Canadian Air Force Canadian Panel 101. RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL
FLEMING, JOSEPH Flight Sergeant 936192 09/06/1942 22 Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve United Kingdom Panel 74. RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL
CATTLE, THOMAS ROBERT MANARD Flight Sergeant R/53364 09/06/1942 Royal Canadian Air Force Canadian Panel 103. RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL
HOLLAND, REGINALD DOUGLAS Sergeant 1167380 09/06/1942 21 Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve United Kingdom Panel 86. RUNNYMEDE
JACKMAN, ERIC LESLIE Sergeant 1180364 09/06/1942 Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve United Kingdom Panel 86. RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL
MONTGOMERY, GEORGE RAYMOND Flight Sergeant R/69146 09/06/1942 21 Royal Canadian Air Force Canadian Panel 105. RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL

Here is a good link for the history of the 405, if you click on the heading "No 405, the first bomber squadron" it will take you to a detailed history in a .pdf. You might be able to work out where he was based. http://www.manitobamilitaryaviationmuse ... light.html

And this one http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/bombercom ... 031may.cfm

It is all very interesting stuff! Since it was a Canadian squadron (with British men on board) then perhaps there will be more info on Canadian sites? I don't know if the men above would all have been on the same operation - you could find out about that I expect.

(Way out of my comfort zone with this now, you would do well to ask about it in the appropriate section)
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Re: Adoption and killed in action

Postby Melon1 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:54 pm

Thanks for the help its been great. I'm a little stumped now with Joyce as I don't think she can originate from Norfolk but I don't know how to distinguish who she is?
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