William France

[Jimmy]

name: Martha France.
baptism/christening date: 07 May 1889.
baptism/christening place: Sheffield, Yorkshire.
father's name: Joseph France.
mother's name: Elizabeth.
indexing project (batch) number: I00815-1.
system origin: England-ODM.
source film number: 6343865.

[Northern Lass]

Need this lot this George Cro??? on earlier census
1871
CROSHER, George Head M 50 1821 Yorkshire
CROSHER, Walter Son M 21 1850 Yorkshire
CROSHER, Elizebeth Daughter F 16 1855 Yorkshire
CROSHER, Albert Son M 14 1857 Yorkshire
CROSHER, Thomas Son M 12 1859 Yorkshire
ROBERSON, Sarah Lodger F 35 1836 At Sea
CHARLESON, John Lodger M 28 1843 ??
FRANCE, William Lodger M 4 1867 Sheffield

Bank Lane, West, Sheffield
County: Yorkshire

[Northern Lass]

I think this is them

name Crooks
1861 Sheffield Yorks - cant read address
George Crooks head married 44 spring knife cutler
Mary Crooks 40 wife
Joseph Crooks 21 son
George Crooks 18? son
Henry Crooks 13 son
Walter Crooks 11 son
??? Crooks 8 ??? dau
Albert Crooks 4 son
Elizebeth Crooks 5 dau
Thomas Crooks 7 Months son
Benjamin Hutchingson 77 boarder widower b Yorkshire ?????
Willm Clegg 47 boarder furnace man widower b Yorkshire ????
all others born sheffield

[Jimmy]

1851. Carver Street, Sheffield.
George Crooks 34. spring knife cutler.
Mary Crooks 29.
Joseph Williams 11. Stepson.
George Williams 8. Stepson.
Henry Crooks 3. Stepson.
Walter Crooks 1. Stepson.

All born Sheffield.

[Jimmy]

Marriages Sep 1850.
CROOKES George. Sheffield. 22. 375.
Harburn Michael. Pontefract. 22 375.
Harding John. Pontefract. 22. 375.
Morrell Mary. Pontefract. 22. 375.
Rocket Peter. Pontefract. 22. 375.
Rockett Peter. Pontefract. 22. 375.
Shilleto Elizabeth. Pontefract. 22. 375.

[Northern Lass]

cant find Mary Williams on 1841
marriage should be a Williams?

think I have found George on 1841
1841 Water street? Sheffield Yorkshire
George Crooks 20 file maker
Sarah Crooks 30

[lancsman]

Lancsman the silence is deafening!!

Where are you chuck you read any of this

Hi, I'm back, stund at the updates . I have another Marr Cert - Arnold france to Florence Foster Madge 22/4/1916 Res 8 Grape Lane Crossgate Durham. William France alive then. Hope it helps.

Could u put all the above in simple talk, ie what certs do u think I should get

[Northern Lass]

Lancsman the silence is deafening!!

Where are you chuck you read any of this

Hi, I'm back, stund at the updates . I have another Marr Cert - Arnold france to Florence Foster Madge 22/4/1916 Res 8 Grape Lane Crossgate Durham. William France alive then. Hope it helps.

Could u put all the above in simple talk, ie what certs do u think I should get

we dont hang around you know! sit around alot

Ok I think and it is only what I think ............could be wrong but I think...you need to contact the regis office at sheffield
and ask them some questions.
I did the other day and asked them the following below in an email for you but they havent responded

I think you need 3 certifs or start with at least that William France birth one b 1867 ask if mother is an Elizabeth France
or just maybe Elizabeth (leave the France off it incase for some reason she uses another surname) or just get that 1867 one
I think it is this one...might be wrong though.
Births Jun 1867
France William Ecclesall B. 9c 338

Then if mother is an elizabeth France you need marriage for Elizabeth France and John Norton 1870
then Elizabeth Norton to Joseph France 1909 (see not on this thread )
Marriages Mar 1909.
FRANCE Joseph. Sheffield. 9c. 641.
HOLMES Beatrice. Sheffield. 9c. 641.
NORTON Elizabeth. Sheffield. 9c. 641.
SHAW George. Sheffield. 9c. 641.
___________________

copy of email sent...

Dear Registrars
I wonder if you could help me please.

I have a marriage in 1870 on free bmd
for Elizabeth France and John Norton
Marriages Sep 1870
FRANCE Elizabeth Sheffield 9c 387
NORTON John Sheffield 9c 387

It is only the correct certificate if the father for her is a George France (his occupation may be a cutler?)
would the marriage above be the correct one to order.

Also I have a William France I think his mother is Elizabeth France possibly no father will be on certificate.
There is no father on his marriage.
I think William France is born 1867-1868 Sheffield or the Yorkshire area.

I am hoping you have a certificate for a William France mother Elizabeth France
there is one here that maybe the one I am after
Births Jun 1867
France William Ecclesall B. 9c 338 -

I think you may have different refs than on free bmd.
So please could you let me know if the marriage above is one that you have in 1870 criteria as specified.

and if you have a birth as above.

------------

if twere me I would just get that birth certif and see what it says for Wm France b 1867
I am hoping mother is an Elizabeth France.

Now what we are thinking is and we are only thinking this might be the case.
Joseph France and Elizabeth France are either sibs or rellies

so the 2 marriages will show that

so the marriage in 1870 will show Elizabeths father which may or may not be George France
Then the marriage in 1909 will show Elizabeth Nortons father which may or may not be George France
Josephs father may or may not be George France.

does that help

[lancsman]

I have to say this is one of the most interesting ones that I have ever seen!
besides my own William Rose saga.

My own view is just get that birth certif via GRo it will cost you 9.25 rather than 10 quid via the registry office
and I wouldnt put any mothers name on it cos she might go under another name.

I would get that see what it says and then go from there
wot u think?

you can order online you know for the gro

I cant wait to see this one!

you could still ask the regis office questions though you dont ask you dont get

Hi NL, birth cert ordered, in addition have ordered M cert of Branwell - 1932 to see if William was on the cert

[lancsman]

Hey Brill!! really excited to see what it says!

Hi NL, first b cert arrived, not much use

B date: 19 Jun 1867

Mother: Elizabeth France (no maiden name)

Father: Not listed

Residance: Union Workhouse, Ecclesall Bierlow?

[Jimmy]

Just as we expected then.

[Northern Lass]

Hey Brill!! really excited to see what it says!

Hi NL, first b cert arrived, not much use

B date: 19 Jun 1867

Mother: Elizabeth France (no maiden name)

Father: Not listed

Residance: Union Workhouse, Ecclesall Bierlow?

Yes Jimmy exactly

Lancsman that is what we were after
do you fancy ordering that marriage to Norton we flagged?
that should tell us more....we need to go thru the pieces and need certifs really.

I think you need this one
Marriages Sep 1870
FRANCE Elizabeth Sheffield 9c 387
Hague Mary Ann Sheffield 9c 387
MUNDY George Sheffield 9c 387
NORTON John Sheffield 9c 387


I personally think that is your Wm France but we can't be fully sure
but to me the pieces fit

then I think you need that other marriage in 1909
Marriages Mar 1909.
FRANCE Joseph. Sheffield. 9c. 641.
HOLMES Beatrice. Sheffield. 9c. 641.
NORTON Elizabeth. Sheffield. 9c. 641.
SHAW George. Sheffield. 9c. 641.

[lancsman]

Hey Brill!! really excited to see what it says!

Hi NL, first b cert arrived, not much use

B date: 19 Jun 1867

Mother: Elizabeth France (no maiden name)

Father: Not listed

Residance: Union Workhouse, Ecclesall Bierlow?

Yes Jimmy exactly

Lancsman that is what we were after
do you fancy ordering that marriage to Norton we flagged?
that should tell us more....we need to go thru the pieces and need certifs really.

I think you need this one
Marriages Sep 1870
FRANCE Elizabeth Sheffield 9c 387
Hague Mary Ann Sheffield 9c 387
MUNDY George Sheffield 9c 387
NORTON John Sheffield 9c 387


I personally think that is your Wm France but we can't be fully sure
but to me the pieces fit

then I think you need that other marriage in 1909
Marriages Mar 1909.
FRANCE Joseph. Sheffield. 9c. 641.
HOLMES Beatrice. Sheffield. 9c. 641.
NORTON Elizabeth. Sheffield. 9c. 641.
SHAW George. Sheffield. 9c. 641.

Branwell France - Lilian Jaminson M Cert arrived 14 Jun 1932 Father: William France Deceased Insurance Superintendant.

[lancsman]

moved this to gen discussion LM while we work onit

Hi NL, Just emailed the B cert

[Northern Lass]

Hi Lancsman

just read thru this again

So you got that 1867 Certificate for William France ..

B date: 19 Jun 1867
Mother: Elizabeth France (no maiden name)
Father: Not listed
Residance: Union Workhouse, Ecclesall Bierlow?

Births Jun 1867
France William Ecclesall B. 9c 338


So that shows that Wms Mother is Elizabeth France

Did you ever get that marriage in 1870 for Elizabeth France and John Norton
Marriages Sep 1870
FRANCE Elizabeth Sheffield 9c 387
NORTON John Sheffield 9c 387


and then this one
Marriages Mar 1909.
FRANCE Joseph. Sheffield. 9c. 641.
HOLMES Beatrice. Sheffield. 9c. 641.
NORTON Elizabeth. Sheffield. 9c. 641.
SHAW George. Sheffield. 9c. 641.


The bapt of Martha Norton/France showed parents Joseph and Elizabeth.