Longland birth without name

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Longland birth without name

Postby Longies » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:46 pm

Afternoon all,

Will appreciate it if somebody can help please.

I am looking for a birth of Andrew LONGLAND during 1860 or 1861. Cannot find any Andrew LONGLAND born on GRO, FreeBMD, FindMyPast or ukcensusonline in that time span.

There is however a record of a male LONGLAND born March 1861 in St Giles (Vol 1B Page 445) and mother's surname is WELBOURN, but no name is given.

Can someone maybe help with a name for this birth? Will appreciate.

Maybe when registering parents did not know name, but later named him Andrew???????

Thanks.
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Re: Longland birth without name

Postby grangers14 » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:53 pm

Do you have him on census or a fathers name at all?
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Re: Longland birth without name

Postby Longies » Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:24 am

Hello Grangers14,

Thanks for the reply. No I don't see an "obvious" Andrew on any census and I don't have ANY info on his fathers name !!!!
The "closest" is a Robert A Longland born during 1861 in Lincolnshire - maybe the A for Andrew???? But I doubt in any case whether this census record is of the Andrew Longland I am looking for. Why? Please see next paragraph.

The death record of Andrew Longland I do have (dated 1901) doesn't show any info on his parents, where he was born and it only shows Andrew LONGLAND as his name. Now I do understand that such records is not the alpha and omega ito names and therefore Andrew might not be his only name (Andrew vs Robert A vs Robert Andrew ......... )

This death record is in South Africa. So either Andrew was born in England and at later stage emigrated from UK or he was born in SA.

I have confirmed info on my LONGLAND ancestors who emigrated from UK to SA during 1846 and can with 99% certainty say that Andrew is not "in the picture" there. So at this stage I doubt strongly that Andrew was born in SA. Therefore I am currently looking at the option that he was born in UK and at later stage came to SA. If so, then he will only appear in one, two or three census records. But then we also know that some people just sometimes do not appear on census records.

So that is it - maybe worth a posting in the Brickwall section. No father's name, no confirmed place of birth. With age at death (Sep 1901) being 40, he was born between Oct 1860 - Sep 1861. Therefore the interest in the male LONGLAND.

What is interesting is that Andrew does not seem to feature strongly as a name in the LONGLAND tree. So any Andrew found could just maybe lead to something?

Thanks.
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Re: Longland birth without name

Postby rockyfowler » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:36 am

Maybe when registering parents did not know name, but later named him Andrew???????

Yes happened a lot some of my ancestors didn`t name till later sometimes were ill and died suddenly,you could order pdf of gro see any clues on that kind regards RF
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Re: Longland birth without name

Postby gardener » Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:59 pm

Longies wrote:Afternoon all,

Will appreciate it if somebody can help please.

I am looking for a birth of Andrew LONGLAND during 1860 or 1861. Cannot find any Andrew LONGLAND born on GRO, FreeBMD, FindMyPast or ukcensusonline in that time span.

There is however a record of a male LONGLAND born March 1861 in St Giles (Vol 1B Page 445) and mother's surname is WELBOURN, but no name is given.

Can someone maybe help with a name for this birth? Will appreciate.

Maybe when registering parents did not know name, but later named him Andrew???????

Thanks.


I think he may be Herbert Howard, who was still in England in 1901 at least

LONGLAND, - WELBOURN GRO Reference: 1861 M Quarter in ST GILES Volume 01B Page 445
LONGLAND, WILLIAM WELBOURN GRO Reference: 1859 J Quarter in ST GILES Volume 01B Page 395
LONGLAND, SARAH WELBOURN GRO Reference: 1855 M Quarter in ST. GILES IN THE FIELDS & ST. GEORGE BLOOMSBURY Volume 01B Page 394
LONGLAND, FREDERICK CHARLES WELBOURN GRO Reference: 1853 M Quarter in Holborn Volume 1B

1861
Household schedule number: 359
Piece: 173
Folio: 113
Page Number: 52
Household Members:
Name Age
William Longland 41
Sarah Longland 39
Betsy Longland 12
John H Longland 10
Fred An Longland 8
Sarah Longland 5
William Longland 2
Herbert H Longland 1/12
Sarah Howard 58
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Re: Longland birth without name

Postby grangers14 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:12 pm

Did he marry?
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Re: Longland birth without name

Postby gardener » Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:00 pm

grangers14 wrote:Did he marry?


Yes. There is more here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22044&p=211824#p211824

I can't see him anywhere in English census/parish records.

The Longlands who went to SA are easy to find in the census. Two brothers went to Australia separately. But no Andrew is jumping out. Maybe it is a matter of going back a generation and then forward to track cousins.
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Re: Longland birth without name

Postby Longies » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:51 am

Thanks to Gardener and Grangers14 for the replies,

Special thanks to Gardener for info on Herbert Howard - so at least I know that the "unknown male" was Herbert Howard and not Andrew.

Just to add to Grangers14 question "did he marry". The link provided by Gardener is correct, but since that posting I have determined that Andrew LONGLAND married Eva Elizabeth RHODA, who was a sister of Ellen HART (nee RHODA). Marriage took place in SA. They had 2 daughters - so no LONGLAND descendants. So to a certain extent one might ask : "But why all the effort?". Well, I still want to know who's child Andrew was.

Regarding Gardener's comment "The Longlands who went to SA are easy to find in the census". You mentioned two brothers who went to Australia (which is correct). The John Spencer that went to SA was also a brother of the mentioned two brothers who went to Australia. So they were 3 brothers from one family that emigrated! John arrived in SA on ship Susan in January 1846 with his wife Mary and daughter Zilpha. Other LONGLAND folk that came to SA are -
- Henry LONGLAND and Ernest James LONGLAND (two sons of Abraham LONGLAND & Lucy LONGLAND (nee WALL)
- John Francis LONGLAND and unknown wife. John *1859 Havant, Hampshire and he was gardener age 22 in Sussex when emigrating to SA. Arrived in Durban, SA on ship SS Danube on 9 April 1882.

I just want to mention that some websites with census records one needs to pay to get full access. Rightly or wrongly I am not a paid subscriber as the Pound/Rand exchange rate will "hit me hard" and I only on the "odd occasion" really need access to census records. I mostly get around with the "limited info" available on the sites with census records. But Gardener's comment makes me to re-think my access to census records.

Info on immigrants to SA and passenger lists are scarce and incomplete on the sites here in SA. So it is difficult to track immigrants coming to SA and one sometimes has to rather look at it from the "other side" (emigration country).

Sorry for all the other "babbling", but it just all gets so interesting.

Thanks again.
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Re: Longland birth without name

Postby grangers14 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:03 pm

There is a marriage on familysearch for
Eva Elizabeth Rhoda to a Peter Grieve
3rd March 1891 St Mary, Johannasburg and Pretoria.

I looked to see if I could see a marriage with that surname and couldn't.
The marriages do not show fathers names...
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Re: Longland birth without name

Postby Longies » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:16 am

Couldn't find the marriage on FamilySearch you are referring to? But as you said, parents' names are typically not written.

As we all know FamlySearch is a "dynamic ever evolving" site with info continuously being added. With my initial posting on another thread where I was looking for info on Andrew (May 2019), I could not find anything on Eva LONGLAND. However when looking again during November 2019, I found the info that confirmed (via death notice) that Eva Elizabeth LONGLAND was a Rhoda lady. So the moral of the story as we all know, is too always come back to a site in future.

The John Spencer LONGLAND who immigrated to SA had 4 children in SA (and one daughter Zilpha in England). And all 4 children had registered entries for baptism or death in the case of the one child. Therefore I find it very odd that he would not register the birth or baptism of Andrew, if Andrew was his child.

So my conclusion is either,
- Andrew is the child of "another unknown " LONGLAND and therefore my search, or
- Andrew is the son of John Spencer LONGLAND but I just cannot find a record relating to his birth or baptism

BUT...... even the second option I still dispute, as Andrew is not mentioned in the will of John & Mary LONGLAND written in 1871, when Andrew was still alive. Unless he was excluded for some valid yet unknown reason. So if the first option is the most probable and it now seems he was not born in England, it means that there was an unknown LONGLAND who immigrated to SA somewhere before 1860, when Andrew was born in SA.

Again thanks for the assistance in looking for the "needle in the hay stack".
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Re: Longland birth without name

Postby gardener » Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:12 pm

This is the Eva Elizabeth marriage

Name: Peter Grieve
Gender: Male
Age: 20
Marital status: Bachelor (Single (Male))
Record Type: Marriage
Birth Date: abt 1871
Residence Place: Johannesburg, South Africa
Marriage Date: 3 Feb 1891
Marriage Place: Johannesburg, Gauteng, South Africa
Marriage Place Notes: Johannesburg
Church: Original Register of St. Mary's in the Parish of Johannesburg in the Diocese of Pretoria
Spouse: Eva Elizabeth Rhoda
Occupation: Waiter
Collection: Johannesburg: St Mary's Cathedral Marriages, 1887-1895
Archive Name: St. Mary's Johannesburg Marriage Register
Page Number: 96

and I think they had a daughter (entry says the father is a waiter, which matches)

Name:
Jenetta Sophia

Event Type:
Baptism
Event Date:
16 Jul 1893
Event Place:
Transvaal, South Africa
Parent Name:
Peter Grieve
Parent 2 Name:
Elizabeth Grieve

Entry Number:
2448

I'm just adding that here in case it ever comes in handy.

The name "Andrew" does not seem to come up in any Longland family at all. I wondered if he could have been John Spencer's sister Charlotte's child from before she married but I checked the births of Andrews in her vicinity and none have the mother as Longland. Oh well, perhaps all will become clear one day ;-) Good luck with it.
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Re: Longland birth without name

Postby grangers14 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:34 pm

Not sure if this link works? If it doesn't it is on page 95

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=1468076
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Re: Longland birth without name

Postby Longies » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:51 pm

Affternoon all,

Thanks for info Gardener and yes Grangers14 - the link does work.

Gardener if I may ask, what names/info did you use in FamilySearch to search for the marriage of Eva Elizabeth. I have tried a search with
Name = Eva Elizabeth
Surname = Rhoda
Marriage year = 1891
Place = South Africa
to make the search as "wide" as possible but also not get hundreds of results. Yet I got nothing??????? Somewhere I am missing something and I am more than willing to learn.

I have however via another route gone to the film containing the marriage records and found it. So I agree 100% with the info you posted - no arguing that. Also that JanettaSophia was the child of Peter Grieve and Eva Elizabeth.

But (and not to make it your issue) now for the following interesting info.
I am sure Andrew LONGLAND was married to (Eva) Elizabeth LONGLAND (nee RHODA). Elizabeth died 23 Dec 1950 age 81 and therefore birth abt 1869 ( https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WZSX-JG2M). The death information of Elizabeth LONGLAND shows her maiden name as Rhoda. The baptism of Andrew and Elizabeth's daughter (Louisa Florence Longlent) [spelling mistake in record] shows mother's name as Eva Elizabeth. So based on this info I have Eva Elizabeth Rhoda married to Andrew LONGLAND.

I further also have a Janetta LONGLAND married Gerhard Walbrugh in Cape Town on 24 April 1919 (age 26 and therefore born 1893). (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q23Q-ZJ3R ).
I can also "strongly" link Janetta LONGLAND to Elizabeth LONGLAND via Gerhard Walbrugh in a document with info on her death.

So all indications are that Andrew LONGLAND was married to Eva Elizabeth Rhoda (date and place unknown and no record of marriage certificate) and had two daughters
- Janetta *1893 but cannot be confirmed with birth or baptism docs
- Louisa Florence *24/5/1895 Pretoria, Transvaal, SA and can be confirmed with baptism record (even though surname is shown as Longlent)

Now compare this to Peter Grieve married to Eva Elizabeth Rhoda (confirmed) who was 21 when married in 1891 and thus born abt 1870.
They had a daughter Janetta Sophia Grieve (confirmed) and born 1893 (confirmed). So many similarities .............. it makes me ........

Again thanks for the interest shown and for me indirectly also learning from your experiences. Much appreciated.
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Re: Longland birth without name

Postby gardener » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:00 pm

Gardener if I may ask, what names/info did you use in FamilySearch to search for the marriage of Eva Elizabeth. I have tried a search with
Name = Eva Elizabeth
Surname = Rhoda
Marriage year = 1891
Place = South Africa
to make the search as "wide" as possible but also not get hundreds of results. Yet I got nothing??????? Somewhere I am missing something and I am more than willing to learn.


Sorry! I could not find it on there either - perhaps grangers14 can enlighten us both! (I took it from Ancestry)


Most of the Longland people that I have tried to trace back through the census seem to come originally from Yardley Hastings. Many (too may!) of their baptisms are on https://www.freereg.org.uk as you may already know.

I noticed on Family Search that an Agnes Sarah Longland died in SA 1.7.1950, unmarried and born about 1867. I was surprised to see that she travelled out to SA in 1936 (on Ancestry) and she appears in the English census until then, the daughter of Simeon and Sarah as far as I can see, and he was son of Abraham and Susannah I think - they had a bunch of children baptised at Yardley Hastings.
It seems curious that so many from the same place/family should go to South Africa over such a long time period, unless they were still in contact in some way.
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Re: Longland birth without name

Postby Longies » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:23 am

Thanks Gardener - at least it then makes sense that I could not find the record on FamilySearch.

Yes according to my research there were many LONGLAND folks from Yardley Hastings area. Being from SA, I actually had to do some geography to understand possibilities ito births and baptisms. For example John Spencer LONGLAND (who is my main ancestor) was baptised in Olney, Buckinghamshire which is not far from YH, Northhamptonshire where John's parents initially came from.

Back to your comment re Agnes Sarah. I have two daughters of Simeon and Sarah (Agnes Sarah *abt 1867 and Fanny *1879) who came to SA. Agnes Sarah never married and died 1950, while Fanny LONGLAND married a Harry Collens. Simeon LONGLAND (the father of the 2 mentioned daughters) was a cousin of "our" John Spencer LONGLAND. So yes, what attracted them to SA is unknown. Not sure when Fanny immigrated to SA, but I wouldn't be surprised if Fanny came first and Agnes then followed her later.

BTW there are obviously many, many more LONGLAND people in England and I have seen a lot from "other areas" as well, who are not obviously linked to our tree (which originated mainly from the Yardley Hastings LONGLANDs).
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