The Buffs, Royal East Kent Regiment 1572-1961

[smokinjoe]

If anyone can help with info on the Buffs, particularly during the first and second world wars, it would be greatly appreciated. My Grandfather was in this regiment
but i only have his first initial which is E. King. I have his medals and lots of old photographs, but i haven't been able to get his full name. I do have his Army number, but am just feeling around to see what response i get.

[Jimmy]

If you post his army number you will probably get a bigger response.

[apowell]

Hi,

Have you obtained your Grandfather's service records which should give you further information on his actual whereabouts during the war and should give personnel details, dates, Battalion and places served.

This website will give you all the procedures, information and a downloadable application form (just click on the Service Records, Medals & Badges link on the right hand screen). Make sure you have sent all the information requested or they will be returned and you'll have to start the procedure all over again.

http://www.veterans-uk.info

I think you will need to order the service records which should give details on which Battalion/s of The Buffs your Grandfather served with during the war. The reason I say this is that the Buffs raised 10 Battalions during the 2nd World War and I assume these were posted all over and saw action in different theatres during the war:
4th (Territorial Army) Battalion [1939-1947]
5th (Territorial Army) Battalion [1939-1947]
6th (Home Defence) Battalion [1939-1941]
7th Battalion [1940-1945] This was converted to armour in 1941 and was known as 141st Regiment Royal Armoured Corps (7th Battalion The Buffs)
8th Battalion [1940-1942]
9th Battalion [1940-1946]
10th Battalion [1940-1943]
11th Battalion [1940]
30th Battalion [1941-1943]
70th (Young Soldiers') Battalion [1940-1943]

If your Grandfather served during the First World War then post all the information you have on him eg personnels details, place and date of birth and Jimmys suggestion would also be very helpful regarding his Regimental Number.

p.s.

I'm not sure which war 1st or 2nd your Grandfather fought in from the information you posted so I've given help regarding both

Hope this helps
Adrian

[smokinjoe]

Thanks to jimmy and apowell for your help.I think He served in both wars and my father told me that he was instrumental in the escape of POWs in Italy during WW11. My Father showed me a newspaper clipping of my Grandfathers' obituary once........does anyone know of publications that have info on veterans obituaries, as i remember it was quite informative on his military history. Am in the process of obtaining service records, but i reside in Australia so it could take a while. One of his medals is the 1914-15 star and has 1478 L.Cpl E. King E. Kent R. but on the Great War for civilization medal 1914-1919 it has 6223 sjt. E. King E. Kent r. so i am confused as to which is his proper number. It seems every avenue i go down, turns to another two avenues and it becomes incredibly frustrating, nevertheless i am determined to pursue whatever it takes so that i can give all info to my Son when the time comes.

[MarkCDodd]

Edward King.

The medal card for the 1914-15 star and Regimental Number 1478 only had that medal on it.

Other medal cards for Edward King in the Buffs have do not have the Regimental Number 6223.


I could only find one intact WWI record for an Edward King serving with the Buffs.

If this is you Edward King then his WW1 record is quite intact and available on Ancestry.

He left England in October 1914 and did not return till May 1919 after serving in India and Mesopotamia.

His regimental number when he left Bangalore for home at the end of the war was 240351.

However, this Edward King was 46 years of age when he signed up in 1914 so I doube he had anyting to do with WWII.

[apowell]

Hi,

Well this is not going to be very easy to work out but let's look at what we have so far:

One of his medals is the 1914-15 star and has 1478 L.Cpl E. King E. Kent R.

Mark's found this MIC which matches the above
Name. Edward King
Regiment. East Kent Regiment
Rank. L/Cp
Reg no.1478
Medal. 1915 Star ref: E/2/2a. 34
Theatre served. 5 Asiatic
Date entry. 5th Aug 1915

The above medal reference refers to the medal roll index for the East Kent Regiment and looking at this index will give you further information on Edward eg. Battalion served etc. The only problem these records are kept at the National Archive in Kew and to my knowledge are not available to view on line.

List of theatres
The medal index cards and medal rolls refer to codes that tell which theatre of war the man served in.
For disembarkations up to 31 December 1915
These codes generally apply to men who won the 1914 or 1914-15 Star, but not those who only won the British War Medal/Victory Medal pair.
1 Western Europe (France)
2 Balkans (inc Gallipoli)
3 Egypt
4 Africa
5 Asia
6 Australasia

I'm not 100% sure but looking at the whereabouts of the East Kent Battalions during the war the only two Battalions that seems to fit were the 1/4th & 1/5th Battalions and the reason I think this is as follows:

1. The 1/4th & 1/5th Battalions were Territorial soldiers who would have been called up from the reserves at the beginning of the war (late 1914- early 1915). I think Edward was one of these Territorials because if he had enlisted he would have most likely been posted to one of the New Battalions and not gone overeseas until 1916 onwards.
2. The 1/4th & 1/5th Battalions seem to have been the only Battalions posted (Aug 1915) to India/Aden and Mesopotamia during the war.
3. In August 1915 the Brecknockshire Battalion returned form Aden, where it was replaced by 1/4th Buffs. Large numbers of units were sent to Mesopotamia; they were replaced by Second Line and Garrison units coming out from England. These units, while taking over the roles, were not placed under Divisional command. This process, along with rotation of units going to Aden, continued through 1916, 1917 and 1918.

133rd (Kent) Brigade
1/4th Bn, the Buffs served in Aden 4 August 1915 to 28 January 1916
1/5th Bn, the Buffs left December 1915 (Mesopotamia)

Interestingly the 1/4th Buffs served in Aden from the 4th August 1915 and Edward's Medal Index Card states 5th August 1915 which could be another indication that he served with the 1/4th Buffs.

on the Great War for civilization medal 1914-1919 it has 6223 sjt. E. King E. Kent r so i am confused

These medals were called the British & Victory medals and the Great War for civilization medal 1914-1919 I think was printed on the back of one or both of these medals and these two medals were issued to anyone who had served overseas during the war.

It's quite possible that the 1915 medal gave Edward's Rank & Reg Number at the time of his service in 1915 and if he was promoted and changed Reg.Number during the war so when the British & Victory medals were issued this information was listed. Large, large numbers of the British & Victory medals were issued and many mistakes were made and sometimes on the Medal Index Cards you see information written regarding medals returned to be amended. It's quite possible Edward was happy with the medals received and didn't want to or be bothered to have them amended.

His regimental number when he left Bangalore for home at the end of the war was 240351.

This Medal Index Card may also fit Edward because it states:
Name. Edward King
Regiment. East Kent Regiment
Rank. Sgt
Reg no. 6226

The rank of Sgt is correct and the Reg Number you quoted 6223 isn't far from the 6226 above. Maybe worth double checking the Reg Number you have printed on the medal. The above however seemed to have been posted to the Royal Engineers ?

I think He served in both wars and my father told me that he was instrumental in the escape of POWs in Italy during WW11.

This is were I'm really confused because given his service details early in the war this would put him around 45-50 years of age at the outbreak of the 2nd world war and would make it highly unlikely he would have been accepted for military service.

I have his medals and lots of old photographs,

The medals you refer to should include medals from the 1939-1945 war and the photo's you mention may include some of his service during the 2nd World war.

The above is pure speculation but maybe some food for thought.

What do you think?

Regards
Adrian

[apowell]

Hi,

I've just checked the service records of the Edward King mentioned by Mark (should have checked before ) and it states Edward's address
Whitby Road, Cheriton, Folkestone, Kent. If he was 51 years of age in 1919 that would put his date of birth abt. 1868

Is it possible this was your Great Grandfather and he had a son also named Edward who served in the 2nd World War or maybe this isn't the correct person.

Any ideas?

Adrian

[apowell]

Hi again

I'm really interested in this puzzle.

I think the WWI record for an Edward King serving with the Buffs we found isn't the right one but to confuse matters this Edward also served with the Buffs in India and Mesopotamia around the same time. The reason I don't think this is your Grandfather:

1.The date of birth 1868 would mean it was impossible he served in the 2nd World War and surely the information you have been given regarding your Grandfather's involvement must be based on some facts.
2. We know from the 1915 medal that your Grandfather was L/Cp when he first served overseas in 1915 and the other Edward Kings Medal Index Card states he was a Sgt when first being sent overseas.
3.The Regimental number you quoted 6223 isn't far from the 6226 and the two different Medal Index Cards for Edward King (including the 6226 number) must be the same person because one card states the 1915 medal entitlement and the other card the British & Victory medal entitlements.
4. We know your Edward served overeseas because of the medals you have and from the Medal Index Cards there are only two possible matches with the Buffs.

Regards
Adrian

[MarkCDodd]

I also thought it may be a father and son who both served in the Buffs.

[smokinjoe]

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Thank you to all who are trying to help me unravel this puzzle.I have posted a photo of my Grandfathers medals...it may shed a bit more light on the subject for some of you. One of the photos i have from the second world war, shows my grandfather to be around 50-55 but he is wearing civilian clothes and is surrounded by a group of high ranking looking officers.Here is a photo of his medals {sorry about the clarity}...this may help someone to identify his career,
Many thanks to all, S. King.

[MarkCDodd]

Looks like you have some substitute ribbons attached.

Going from left to right.
King George V Silver Jubilee or Long Service & Good Conduct

The King George was awarded to select members of the armed forces and civilians on the 25th anniversary of his reign

The Long Service & Good conduct was awarded for 18 years service in the Army.

The ribbon is incorrect and belongs to the 1914/1915 Star.

The ribbon on the 1914/1915 Star looks like the ribbon for the Long Service & Good Conduct medal.

So I would say this is the LS&GC medal

British WWII Defence Medal.

A campaign medal issued to service personnel and civilians and awarded for:

a) Three years service in a non operational area that is closely threatened by ground or naval forces or subjected to air attack. i.e. An Air Warden or Fireman might receove it as a cilvilian. Support staff, such as WAF or aircraft mechanics, might receive it as service personnel.

b) One year service overseas.

c) Six months overseas if subject to enemy attacks or closely threatened.

King's Medal for Champion Shot - Military?

By the ribbon it looks like its a marksmanship medal. What does it have on the reverse?

1914-15 Star from WWI.

A campaign medal awarded to officers and soldiers of British and Imperial forces who served in any theater of war between 5th August 1914 and 31st December 1915.

The ribbon is wrong and beleongs to the Long Service & Good Conduct medal on the far left.

British War Medal 1914-1918

The British War Medal struck in silver was awarded in recognition of the immense sacrifice during the First World War and through to the battles in Russia until 1920.

Twenty eight days service or loss of life during action was the pre-requisite.

British War Medal 1939-1945

The War Medal 1939-1945 was awarded for full-time service in the Armed Forces, whatever that service may have been rendered during the War.

Operational and non-operational service may be counted, providing that it was of 28 days or more duration.

Victory Medal WW1

Issued to all those with either the 1914-1915 Star or British War Medal or both, but never on its own.

At the bottom of the picture I can see a ribbon for the Italy Star from WWII.

That was awarded for operational service on land in Italy, Sicily, Greece, Yugoslavia, the Aegean, and the Dodecanese, Corsica, Sardinia and Elba, 11th June 1943 to 8 May 1945.

That would fit in with him being involved in Italy during WWII.

[apowell]

Hi,

Wow what a fantastic collection of medals and what a life your Grandfather must have led.

I think these two Medal Index Carda are your Grandfathers:
Name. Edward King
Regiment. East Kent Regiment
Rank. L/Cp
Reg no.1478
Medal. 1915 Star ref: E/2/2a. 34
Theatre served. 5 Asiatic
Date entry. 5th Aug 1915

Name. Edward King
Regiment. East Kent Regiment & RE
Rank. Sgt
Reg no. 6226, 242997, 621879
Medals.
British ref: Roll: RE/101B211 Page: 51993
Victory ref: Roll: RE/101B211 Page: 51993
Theatre served. Blank
Date entry. Blank

This is only a hunch but given his Reg no. of 242997 & 621879 this may indicate he was transfered to the Royal Engineers and also re-numbered from 1917 onwards. The Army re-numbered soldiers who were transfered and also in the Spring of 1917 all Territorial soldiers (your Grandfather would have been one) were issued new Reg. numbers:
During WW1 at that time each regiment issued its own numbers, and if a man was moved from one to another, he was renumbered. It was even more complex in some regiments as each unit issued its own numbers, and if he was a Territorial he would have been re-numbered in spring 1917. This is why a man might have more than one number and you may need to know them all.

Is it possible for you to check the rim of the British & Victory medals to re-check the Regimental Number/s given. This would help us to confirm that the above was or was not your Grandfather.

Did your Grandfather have any specilized trade/profession because if he was transfered to the RE I would assume he had something to offer that would have been of use to the Regiment.

I'm thinking the photo you mentioned taken during World War II (wearing civilian clothes) alongside high ranking officers may indicate he may have been performing some sort of specialized civilian job for the military. Given his First World War involvement the age of 50-55 years of age would fit the date of the photo and his age would I think eliminate him from seeing front line service.

Many thanks for sharing the medals and your post has proved most interesting indeed.

Regards
Adrian

[smokinjoe]

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First of all, many thanks to all who have posted help and info, particularly Mark and Adrian. This information is invaluable to me. I think you are right and that he did serve in the RE, as i have other pictures of my grandfather seemingly in command of men digging, unloading machinery off trucks etc.This photo shows my Grandfather pointing (in cap). There is a stamp on the back of the photo "BELFAST NEWS-LETTER", i looked this up online and the publication has a website but in the photo archives there is no sign of anything from the war years. Also the number on the medal with the man on the horse with skull and crossbones at its feet is 6223, sjt E King E Kent R and on the one with long service/good conduct the number is 1859465 sjt E King RE. Also i found written on the back of one of the photos, his other initial making his name E.T. King, if that is any more help. Once again thank you so much for taking the time to help me,
Kind regards S. King.

[MarkCDodd]

The man behind your grandfather looks like General Haig. I am pretty sure it is, especially since he is carrying gloves which he nearly always did.

The two star general in the Cavalry Trousers at the front looks like WW1 era.

But the car in the background looks like a 1930's Austin Staff Car.

Can you look at the medal I could not identity and see if what it has on the reverse side and if it is incribed.

[smokinjoe]

sorry for taking so long to reply, the medal you could not identify is a bayonet fighting best of No 8 party, sapper E.King 621879.